Wichita State Game Observations

97spiderfan

Spider's Club
Feb 2, 2005
13,244
9,020
113
Let me begin with the obvious, our first half offensive performance was completely unacceptable. The blame for that rests in my opinion entirely on the coaching staff. Just a couple nuggets from our first half.

We were 3-17 from 3 in the first half.
We did not attempt a 2 point FG until the under 12 minute time out
17 of our 25 shot attempts in the first half were 3 pointers

Wichita State threw a zone at is and anyone who has watched Mooney coach for the past 18 years, knows that this is one of the areas where he truly struggles. The result of this is that our guys were completely frustrated, "tentative" as Mooney describes it. We had zero energy because literally all we could do on offense is throw the ball around the perimeter and than chuck up some contested 3. Why Mooney didn't call a time out and tell the team, the next person who jacks up a 3, is immediately coming out of the game is beyond me. The team need an ultimatum like that. He did make an adjustment in the second half that was really effective, but you can't play like complete ass for 20 minutes and expect to win games. Adjustments need to come sooner.

Also, Mooney needs to understand, we are not a good 3 point shooting team. Outside of Roche, there is no other player that I would consider a really good 3 point shooter, so to go out and design our offense to almost exclusively in the first half is lunacy.

A couple player observations:

The Great:
Bigelow: Started, needs to start from this point going forward. My god, he was impressive. His poster dunk, probably will go down in my Top 10 of all time best Spider dunks. When Grace return, Grace becomes are starter at the 5, Quinn comes off the bench.
Burton: Strong all around game, a beast on the boards again, his lack of an inside game to get his and our offense flowing is still not there

Serviceable:
Goose: 28 minutes, scored 2 points, 1 board, 1 assist. He is screaming to be replaced in the starting line up BUT
Roche and Dji: Roche was getting abused in the second half by Wichita, they were clearly designing plays to get a favorable match-up against him. Dji: 18 minutes, 1 point, 2 assists a horrible turnover near the end of the game. Goose is not giving us what we need as our starter at the 2, but Dji and Roche aren't doing anything to come out and take that role from him. Our two guard has lots of depth, but right now, no clear number 1 guy, so it remains Goose by default.
Nelson: 5 turnovers, unacceptably high for our PG. It's his 4th game of college ball and he has a load of responsibility on him, so I'm not going to jump all over him. Learning and Growth opportunity.

Yikes:
Quinn: The last play of the game kind of epitomizes Quinn right now, it is painful to watch. Mooney is trying to make him into a Grant/TJ like center and he is just lost out there, particularly on offense. It should be noted that he sat the bench most of the second half when we made our run. That to me was a sign and why when Grace returns, Quinn needs to come off the bench. Maybe he can better into the flow in terms of what we want to do as the season progresses, but he is no where close to that now and it is hurting the team.
 

Eight Legger

Spider's Club
May 27, 2003
18,242
14,456
113
All good points. I think I'm starting Roche anyway because I want him getting seven or eight three-point shots a game. He'll make three of them, and as long as he doesn't give up three himself, that might be the difference between us winning and losing. He's actually shooting at a better clip this year (I know it's very early) than he did last year from deep.
 

Section9.RowD

Starter
Gold Member
Nov 19, 2021
954
1,365
93
Let me begin with the obvious, our first half offensive performance was completely unacceptable. The blame for that rests in my opinion entirely on the coaching staff. Just a couple nuggets from our first half.

We were 3-17 from 3 in the first half.
We did not attempt a 2 point FG until the under 12 minute time out
17 of our 25 shot attempts in the first half were 3 pointers

Wichita State threw a zone at is and anyone who has watched Mooney coach for the past 18 years, knows that this is one of the areas where he truly struggles. The result of this is that our guys were completely frustrated, "tentative" as Mooney describes it. We had zero energy because literally all we could do on offense is throw the ball around the perimeter and than chuck up some contested 3. Why Mooney didn't call a time out and tell the team, the next person who jacks up a 3, is immediately coming out of the game is beyond me. The team need an ultimatum like that. He did make an adjustment in the second half that was really effective, but you can't play like complete ass for 20 minutes and expect to win games. Adjustments need to come sooner.

Also, Mooney needs to understand, we are not a good 3 point shooting team. Outside of Roche, there is no other player that I would consider a really good 3 point shooter, so to go out and design our offense to almost exclusively in the first half is lunacy.

A couple player observations:

The Great:
Bigelow: Started, needs to start from this point going forward. My god, he was impressive. His poster dunk, probably will go down in my Top 10 of all time best Spider dunks. When Grace return, Grace becomes are starter at the 5, Quinn comes off the bench.
Burton: Strong all around game, a beast on the boards again, his lack of an inside game to get his and our offense flowing is still not there

Serviceable:
Goose: 28 minutes, scored 2 points, 1 board, 1 assist. He is screaming to be replaced in the starting line up BUT
Roche and Dji: Roche was getting abused in the second half by Wichita, they were clearly designing plays to get a favorable match-up against him. Dji: 18 minutes, 1 point, 2 assists a horrible turnover near the end of the game. Goose is not giving us what we need as our starter at the 2, but Dji and Roche aren't doing anything to come out and take that role from him. Our two guard has lots of depth, but right now, no clear number 1 guy, so it remains Goose by default.
Nelson: 5 turnovers, unacceptably high for our PG. It's his 4th game of college ball and he has a load of responsibility on him, so I'm not going to jump all over him. Learning and Growth opportunity.

Yikes:
Quinn: The last play of the game kind of epitomizes Quinn right now, it is painful to watch. Mooney is trying to make him into a Grant/TJ like center and he is just lost out there, particularly on offense. It should be noted that he sat the bench most of the second half when we made our run. That to me was a sign and why when Grace returns, Quinn needs to come off the bench. Maybe he can better into the flow in terms of what we want to do as the season progresses, but he is no where close to that now and it is hurting the team.
Great summary ... feel bad for Neal but time to make a change if Grace is healthy for Cuse game (and maybe even if Grace is out)
 
  • Like
Reactions: 97spiderfan

spiderman

Spider's Club
Jun 7, 2001
16,928
6,214
113
Once again, we are running an offense designed for shooters when, at least through 4 games, we are a poor shooting team. You either have to recruit to the system or adapt to the roster you have. It appears we are doing neither well.
agreed B, and I think we got back to that in the 2023 class. but that won't help this year.
the pendulum swings too far sometimes. our defense was bad so we went out and got more defensive minded athletes. now we don't have enough shooting so we looked to add that next year.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 97spiderfan

ur2K

Graduate Assistant
Dec 21, 2006
4,990
2,960
113
Nelson: 5 turnovers, unacceptably high for our PG. It's his 4th game of college ball and he has a load of responsibility on him, so I'm not going to jump all over him. Learning and Growth opportunity.

That number could have been higher - some of those passes he was putting in against the zone early in the game were just terrible, soft, lazy, but didn't directly lead to a TO. This is high level DI basketball, a good team with length is going to eat stuff like that up like they did last night.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 97spiderfan

97spiderfan

Spider's Club
Feb 2, 2005
13,244
9,020
113
That number could have been higher - some of those passes he was putting in against the zone early in the game were just terrible, soft, lazy, but didn't directly lead to a TO. This is high level DI basketball, a good team with length is going to eat stuff like that up like they did last night.
Yes, great point. Nelson's turnover total could have been much higher. The softness and indeciveness of our passing in the first half was a big reason for our lack of ability to even set up on our offense. That rests on everyone but the point guard is the person who has to get the offense on track and flowing and he was unable to do that. Again, learning curve and he is a freshman, but a team like VCU would feast all over a performance like that.
 

fatherspider

Team Manager
Feb 9, 2013
2,613
1,711
113
Nothing new here if you have watched this team and mooney for the past 10 years. There is tslent on this team but they are not being coached up. Burton is the most talented athletic player on the court and CM couldnt figure out a way to get him to penetrate and break the press. I dont think we tried it once. Tylor’s game is taking it to the basket. If he gets double find the cutting player. Not rocket science.
 
Dec 19, 2014
1,433
1,394
113
Let me begin with the obvious, our first half offensive performance was completely unacceptable. The blame for that rests in my opinion entirely on the coaching staff. Just a couple nuggets from our first half.

We were 3-17 from 3 in the first half.
We did not attempt a 2 point FG until the under 12 minute time out
17 of our 25 shot attempts in the first half were 3 pointers

Wichita State threw a zone at is and anyone who has watched Mooney coach for the past 18 years, knows that this is one of the areas where he truly struggles. The result of this is that our guys were completely frustrated, "tentative" as Mooney describes it. We had zero energy because literally all we could do on offense is throw the ball around the perimeter and than chuck up some contested 3. Why Mooney didn't call a time out and tell the team, the next person who jacks up a 3, is immediately coming out of the game is beyond me. The team need an ultimatum like that. He did make an adjustment in the second half that was really effective, but you can't play like complete ass for 20 minutes and expect to win games. Adjustments need to come sooner.

Also, Mooney needs to understand, we are not a good 3 point shooting team. Outside of Roche, there is no other player that I would consider a really good 3 point shooter, so to go out and design our offense to almost exclusively in the first half is lunacy.

A couple player observations:

The Great:
Bigelow: Started, needs to start from this point going forward. My god, he was impressive. His poster dunk, probably will go down in my Top 10 of all time best Spider dunks. When Grace return, Grace becomes are starter at the 5, Quinn comes off the bench.
Burton: Strong all around game, a beast on the boards again, his lack of an inside game to get his and our offense flowing is still not there

Serviceable:
Goose: 28 minutes, scored 2 points, 1 board, 1 assist. He is screaming to be replaced in the starting line up BUT
Roche and Dji: Roche was getting abused in the second half by Wichita, they were clearly designing plays to get a favorable match-up against him. Dji: 18 minutes, 1 point, 2 assists a horrible turnover near the end of the game. Goose is not giving us what we need as our starter at the 2, but Dji and Roche aren't doing anything to come out and take that role from him. Our two guard has lots of depth, but right now, no clear number 1 guy, so it remains Goose by default.
Nelson: 5 turnovers, unacceptably high for our PG. It's his 4th game of college ball and he has a load of responsibility on him, so I'm not going to jump all over him. Learning and Growth opportunity.

Yikes:
Quinn: The last play of the game kind of epitomizes Quinn right now, it is painful to watch. Mooney is trying to make him into a Grant/TJ like center and he is just lost out there, particularly on offense. It should be noted that he sat the bench most of the second half when we made our run. That to me was a sign and why when Grace returns, Quinn needs to come off the bench. Maybe he can better into the flow in terms of what we want to do as the season progresses, but he is no where close to that now and it is hurting the team.
Agree with your summary. A couple of additional observations that stand out to me:

1) The slow arcing lob to Quinn is mostly ineffective and often a hinderance. It gives the defenders time to react and smother him (add this to him being a little slow to make his move after he receives it, and it isn't working)
2) Passing must get better if this team wins consistently. Shooting likely to improve when the passing gets better. Quinn, Roche, and even Burton (to a lesser extent because he can create on his own) will be most successful when they receive passes in the right place and at the right time. I saw a couple of good passes last night, but they were few and far between. (of course standing around on the perimeter doesn't help this either)
 
  • Like
Reactions: urfan1

spiderman

Spider's Club
Jun 7, 2001
16,928
6,214
113
most teams run what they run, and I believe WS has regularly been a man team. but yeah, teams should zone us or at least sag way off some of our guys.

I'm not surprised they zoned us, but I'm surprised how well they ran their zone. it was vey active. no holes, or at least none that we took advantage of.
 

brooklyn brownstone

Team Manager
Oct 31, 2007
2,657
543
113
My thoughts:

Stop turning the ball over, especially in such terrible ways. 3-4 really bad turnovers last few games, along with a smattering of unforced travels and stuff like that in all 4 games.

Stop trying to feed Quinn early in games if he won't make aggressive moves with the ball. He's not the type of player who can make that Golden baseline spin move, I've seen it tried and lead nowhere what half a dozen times now, against probably 5 different defenders. It's the square peg, round hole mentality. Figure out how he averaged 14 a game last year - what kinds of moves he used - and feed him in spots to make those moves, don't make him use Golden's moves. If he can't make moves against smaller or worse defenders, pull him and utilize him on defense in rotation with someone else.

Pass, cut and screen with urgency against a zone (hell, at all times!) Use some dribble penetration to collapse the zone rather than relying solely on the entry pass to the elbow man.

Feature Burton in late shot clock scenarios. Nelson has been poor last 2 games in those spots, lots of turnovers, missed/airballed/bricked 3s and poor shooting FTs, and it's really hurt.

Figure out the 2 guard rotation. Goose (I've long been a supporter) needs to slash more and score more, or sit more. Roche needs volume attempts. Bailey needs to stop with bad turnovers and stay aggressive with slashes as well. I'd actually like more Goose/Bailey at the 1 vs a zone so that we can have Roche, Burton, Bigelow on the wings.
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
187
81
28
Once again, we are running an offense designed for shooters when, at least through 4 games, we are a poor shooting team. You either have to recruit to the system or adapt to the roster you have. It appears we are doing neither well.
We added Roche, Bigelow, and a passing big man that you guys were extremely high on. Actually some said he wouldn’t be far off from Golden’s production. So CM recruited to the system… but I guess blame mooney for recruiting now!
 
  • Like
Reactions: SpiderDad75

SpiderDad75

Star
Gold Member
May 12, 2020
1,101
2,630
113
most teams run what they run, and I believe WS has regularly been a man team. but yeah, teams should zone us or at least sag way off some of our guys.

I'm not surprised they zoned us, but I'm surprised how well they ran their zone. it was vey active. no holes, or at least none that we took advantage of.
They are primarily a man to man team and agree they ran the zone pretty well. I think our spacing hurt us figured it out a little in the 2nd but still struggled ultimately with it. The Cuse is lot longer up top and we all know they are pretty solid in the 2-3. Let's hope we can knock down open looks and get into the zone a little to keep them honest at least.
 

Spider B

Team Manager
Oct 11, 2013
2,597
2,964
113
Richmond, VA
We added Roche, Bigelow, and a passing big man that you guys were extremely high on. Actually some said he wouldn’t be far off from Golden’s production. So CM recruited to the system… but I guess blame mooney for recruiting now!
Yes, I hold head coaches responsible for the results of their programs. The head coach is directly responsible for recruiting and everything else to do with the program. Are you saying he's not?
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
187
81
28
Yes, I hold head coaches responsible for the results of their programs. The head coach is directly responsible for recruiting and everything else to do with the program. Are you saying he's not?
Well you just told me he needs to recruit to the system and he did so, I’d say you just expected them to be good because you read this board. When In reality, you should’ve known this team would struggle with Dean Smith coaching. They lost 6 thousand points! yes he’s responsible but is he going out there and shooting the ball for them?
 

Spider B

Team Manager
Oct 11, 2013
2,597
2,964
113
Richmond, VA
Well you just told me he needs to recruit to the system and he did so, I’d say you just expected them to be good because you read this board. When In reality, you should’ve known this team would struggle with Dean Smith coaching. They lost 6 thousand points! yes he’s responsible but is he going out there and shooting the ball for them?
The roster doesn't have enough shooters to run run CMs system. He's responsible for entire roster, not just last years transfers. I expected the team to be around .500 based on CMs track record. Of course the head coach is not going to go out there and shoot, but he is still directly responsible for results of the program, period.
 

brooklyn brownstone

Team Manager
Oct 31, 2007
2,657
543
113
Well if you figure out that maybe Roche needs clean looks and the offense is not getting him them, then maybe run 3-4 plays designed to get him looks? We seem to have no trouble running great set play action off inbounds passes, why can't we do the same in game flow? Recruit to the system, and adjust to the individual player strengths. That's the coaching that frustrates people, the lack of specific adjustments in game, and especially in close games.
 

Ferrum Spider

Team Manager
Feb 17, 2010
2,496
2,242
113
Press. I don’t understand why we wait until we are way behind to start doing it. Or that once we get ahead again we don’t do it as much. We are pretty good at it from what I can tell.

Bigelows a stud. Start him.

Wasn’t Quinn injured during the game at some point? Coulda swore I heard them mention it on the radio. I’m not sure that play was drawn up for him to shoot, looked like there was to be one or two gunners that were to receive a pass from him but the were either covered or didn’t look for it. His improvisation was brutal though. It also appears you can see some frustration with him from some of the other players judging by their body language towards him. Wont name names but saw at least two examples of it . Think he can be a good complimentary player, but don’t see him as dominant/talented as GG or TJC.

A bit worried about SG as well, not getting the offensive production we need at the time.

Roche is a good shooter but he is going to get carved up in the A10 if we don’t give him help on defense. 33 for them went at him each time he was covered last night and usually resulted in 2. There’s a reason 33 was the 2nd leading scorer last night.

I like this roster but those were some things that stood out in yesterdays loss. Getting MFG back will def help.

Let’s hope this prepares them for the Syracuse zone. I don’t think we’ll ever sneak up on a Jim Beohiem coached team after knocking them off in the NCAAs.
 

spider23

Spider's Club
May 31, 2002
14,106
7,704
113
Dedmon Center USA
ruhoops.proboards.com
We added Roche, Bigelow, and a passing big man that you guys were extremely high on. Actually some said he wouldn’t be far off from Golden’s production. So CM recruited to the system… but I guess blame mooney for recruiting now!
Yes, Mooney has missed out on so many 4/5's - it is a huge problem. I am not giving up on Quinn yet, but the concerns I stated on here this spring are coming to fruition. He has shown some glimpses of good footwork and working to free himself up for a shot, then ultimately gets pushed out of position at the last minute. Hoping to see him get more acclimated and therefore more aggressive.
 
Aug 1, 2022
24
28
13
Yes, Mooney has missed out on so many 4/5's - it is a huge problem. I am not giving up on Quinn yet, but the concerns I stated on here this spring are coming to fruition. He has shown some glimpses of good footwork and working to free himself up for a shot, then ultimately gets pushed out of position at the last minute. Hoping to see him get more acclimated and therefore more aggressive.
Quinn was a huge get at the time. We got him over programs like Loyola Chicago, Penn State, etc. If we didn't get him Mooney would have been crushed because "He fits our style so well, how could you not get him". Yet, now it is that we have missed out on so many 4/5's. Grace, while nobody seemed to have a lot of faith in after his freshman year, turned into a crucial player for us on an NCAA TOURNAMENT TEAM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: urfan1 and VT4700

spider23

Spider's Club
May 31, 2002
14,106
7,704
113
Dedmon Center USA
ruhoops.proboards.com
I get it, Grace developed in year 4 or 5 or whatever it was. Kudos, not banging him. But Mooney is great at getting us in the top 4 or 5 for power forward and then losing out. We heard on hear so many times that it was because we had Grant. Well we also had Cayo - who developed into a solid player, but was not scaring other prospects off. Yes, they eventually did produce an NCAA team and run, which was very fun to watch. But the damn misses and holes in the roster where we were plugging in transfer from Chicago STate and Northeastern averaging 1.2 pts/game were just terrible to watch for years. Reed backing out - again who the hell knows what is going on in the background - is just another in the Almost's for Mooney. I'm hopeful Quinn can be solid, but damn, can't we sign a Justin Harper type at the 4??? We should have been selling that and capitalizing.
 

97spiderfan

Spider's Club
Feb 2, 2005
13,244
9,020
113
Well you just told me he needs to recruit to the system and he did so, I’d say you just expected them to be good because you read this board. When In reality, you should’ve known this team would struggle with Dean Smith coaching. They lost 6 thousand points! yes he’s responsible but is he going out there and shooting the ball for them?
Mooney did not put the team in a position to win in the first half, can we at least agree on that. Whatever, he prepared them to see and do was blatantly and obviously not working within the first 4 minutes of the game. Yet, no adjustment was made until half time. Players missed the shots, yes, but Mooney's job is get them shots in our offense that they can make. He didn't do that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: whampas

97spiderfan

Spider's Club
Feb 2, 2005
13,244
9,020
113
Well if you figure out that maybe Roche needs clean looks and the offense is not getting him them, then maybe run 3-4 plays designed to get him looks? We seem to have no trouble running great set play action off inbounds passes, why can't we do the same in game flow? Recruit to the system, and adjust to the individual player strengths. That's the coaching that frustrates people, the lack of specific adjustments in game, and especially in close games.
Yes, nearly all of our 3's we took, particularly in the first half, we're not good clean looks. We had zero penetration most of the night, so that means every 3 we did take was contested and not in any type of rhythm.

Nelson had a nice penetration in the second half and hit Bigelow for a wide open look and he hit it. That is what we need.

Also, the press is extremely effect. Why we wait until the second half and we are down double digits to deploy it is beyond me. We did this both against Charleston and last night. Got to do something in the first half as soon as Mooney sees the offense going stagnant.
 
  • Like
Reactions: gospidersgo

8legs1dream

Team Manager
Also, the press is extremely effect. Why we wait until the second half and we are down double digits to deploy it is beyond me. We did this both against Charleston and last night. Got to do something in the first half as soon as Mooney sees the offense going stagnant.

It is effective and then as soon as it gets us back within striking distance we give it up
 

ur2K

Graduate Assistant
Dec 21, 2006
4,990
2,960
113
Same story as last year - they played so much better when they played off the press and played fast.
 

urmite

Spider's Club
Gold Member
Dec 2, 2004
10,209
3,283
113
Wichita did have a couple of interesting players..
Rojas was 2 inches taller the last 2 seasons at Alabama, did he shrink?
Walton played 53 minutes in 2 seasons at Georgia, but definitely fits in at Wichita.
 

urmite

Spider's Club
Gold Member
Dec 2, 2004
10,209
3,283
113
Same story as last year - they played so much better when they played off the press and played fast.
It would be great if they stayed with it until it stopped being effective...
 

spider23

Spider's Club
May 31, 2002
14,106
7,704
113
Dedmon Center USA
ruhoops.proboards.com
Agree with the lack of changes. It seems that Mooney made a statement that we were not expecting the zone? That's OK, sounds like they did not show it first few games. BUT, as 97 pointed out, we just continued to ineffectively attack it for long periods. Not sure why a veteran coach could not have implemented those changes immediately.

Was expecting an up and down early season. One thing very concerning is that I could see being without Quinn and/or Grace for long periods. Quinn broke his foot a couple months ago, and was in pain and limping in this game. Hope these guys can stay healthy and we can get Crabtree back.
 
  • Like
Reactions: urfan1
Sep 9, 2021
1,307
1,286
113
Mooney did not put the team in a position to win in the first half, can we at least agree on that. Whatever, he prepared them to see and do was blatantly and obviously not working within the first 4 minutes of the game. Yet, no adjustment was made until half time. Players missed the shots, yes, but Mooney's job is get them shots in our offense that they can make. He didn't do that.
Of course. I was screaming for money to call a timeout in the first four minutes when it was clear that we were overwhelmed by the zone. Completely unprepared.
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
187
81
28
I get it, Grace developed in year 4 or 5 or whatever it was. Kudos, not banging him. But Mooney is great at getting us in the top 4 or 5 for power forward and then losing out. We heard on hear so many times that it was because we had Grant. Well we also had Cayo - who developed into a solid player, but was not scaring other prospects off. Yes, they eventually did produce an NCAA team and run, which was very fun to watch. But the damn misses and holes in the roster where we were plugging in transfer from Chicago STate and Northeastern averaging 1.2 pts/game were just terrible to watch for years. Reed backing out - again who the hell knows what is going on in the background - is just another in the Almost's for Mooney. I'm hopeful Quinn can be solid, but damn, can't we sign a Justin Harper type at the 4??? We should have been selling that and capitalizing.
Justin Harper type at the 4? Yeah let’s just get a 7 foot nba guy who can shoot. Who was good for 2 of his 4 years…
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
187
81
28
Mooney did not put the team in a position to win in the first half, can we at least agree on that. Whatever, he prepared them to see and do was blatantly and obviously not working within the first 4 minutes of the game. Yet, no adjustment was made until half time. Players missed the shots, yes, but Mooney's job is get them shots in our offense that they can make. He didn't do that.
They had shots they could make! WTH are you talking about. He can only draw up so many plays. He can’t pass it to the guys to shoot it. That’s our play makers fault. And we have 2 point guards according to you guys, they can’t create shots? Mooney has to do it?
 

POMSpidur

Rookie
May 26, 2022
187
81
28
They had shots they could make! WTH are you talking about. He can only draw up so many plays. He can’t pass it to the guys to shoot it. That’s our play makers fault. And we have 2 point guards according to you guys, they can’t create shots? Mooney has to do it?
I’m guessing Isaac Brown was out there getting Wichita state shots!
 

Latest posts