Tyler Burton - Guard not Forward

[GKiller]

Good interview with Tyler. I liked what he had to say and also the way he said it. Hope he can bring that rebounding and D. His lack of shooting may be a concern tho. anyway I can't pinpoint it exactly but seemed to have good head on his shoulders and I came out thinking he'll work out very well.

what was unexpected was he called himself a Guard not a Forward a couple times. I wonder if our own coaches know that. He is listed as Forward on website. Or maybe its oh sorry Tyler get ready to play forward!

Granted we play small a lot and play 3 guards anyway so he'll bring us some better size regardless, he just struck me as a forward so I thought it was interesting.

 

[spiderman]

I believe he'll be defending the opposing 3.
whether the 3 is considered a guard or a forward in our offense doesn't matter. the job is the same.

if he likes to be called a guard, I'll call him a guard.

 

[VT4700]

Good stuff. I think he will be a good one. Like sman said, does not matter what he calls himself or how we list him, we need him to rebound, play d, and be an athlete off the bench for us right now. When he sees the floor, he should be one of our best rebounders and athletes out there, regardless of who else is out there.

 

[urmite]

We have Sherod listed as a guard, Burton as a Forward.

 

[Not-A-Homer]

Good stuff. I think he will be a good one. Like sman said, does not matter what he calls himself or how we list him, we need him to rebound, play d, and be an athlete off the bench for us right now. When he sees the floor, he should be one of our best rebounders and athletes out there, regardless of who else is out there.

Burton would need to be an absolute superstar to see the floor more than a couple of minutes this year. Maybe he is, I haven't seen him play, BUT, reality is that he likely is not.

The "without blinders" questions are:

A. Whose minutes does Burton take?
B. And what would be the justification for his "time" on the floor?

1) He is a true freshman
2) By his own statement, is trying to adjust to the speed of the college game
3) By his own statement, he must improve his shooting
4) He and Mooney are already not speaking the same language (he says he is a guard, Mooney and program say he is a forward)
5) If he is a guard, he is NOT realistically taking minutes from Francis, Gilyard, Wojcik, or Gustafson
6) If he is a forward, it is highly unlikely that he is taking many minutes from Sherod
7) If Gustafson is playing forward, then Burton most likely won't be taking significant forward minutes from him
8) If Wojcik is playing forward, then Burton won't be taking many forward minutes from him
8) If Sal is as good (and improved) as many on this site say, then Burton won't be taking forward minutes from him
9) Burton won't be taking minutes from Golden/Grace unless the team is in massive crisis
10) His coach struggles notoriously with player management and rotations

So, if Burton isn't a major stud who is ready to immediately impact college basketball, when does he see the floor this season?

Mooney doesn't even do well at sharing minutes in mop up time (assuming there will be any).

This isn't to say that Burton won't be a terrific player some day. Time will tell. Real world analysis says that those who intimate that there is room for him this season are (as usual) deluding themselves.

 

[GKiller]

We have Sherod listed as a guard, Burton as a Forward.

many guys will have lot of the same responsibilities as a guard or a forward outside pg or center. However vt4700 recently was harping on importance of program listing guys as guard and forward and that’s all we need to pay attention to...the whole positionless deal. And then within days we find out they don’t even have Burton right. Listed as forward but clearly described himself as a guard. So there’s some miscommunication somewhere.

 

[spider23]

Yes miscommunication everywhere with this regime. Unfortunately, Not a Homer has Mooney figured out pretty good - so yes Burton will need to be really really good to see the floor for some significant playing time. And even then, it will be hard for Mooney to give him minutes.

 

[VT4700]

many guys will have lot of the same responsibilities as a guard or a forward outside pg or center. However vt4700 recently was harping on importance of program listing guys as guard and forward and that’s all we need to pay attention to...the whole positionless deal. And then within days we find out they don’t even have Burton right. Listed as forward but clearly described himself as a guard. So there’s some miscommunication somewhere.

? Are we really worried about this? And I think you meant to say I was talking about the non importance, not importance, of positions. But, didn't he spend more time talking about rebounding than being a "guard" anyway? Once again, I just don't get the meaningless whining here.

 

[SpiderDaMan]

This is a real live thread?

 

[GKiller]

? Are we really worried about this? And I think you meant to say I was talking about the non importance, not importance, of positions. But, didn't he spend more time talking about rebounding then being a "guard" anyway? Once again, I just don't get the meaningless whining here.

Not worried. Liked interview & I’m genuinely interested in where our players envision their role and this is the Richmond basketball message board. Also found little funny given what u said about checking out the website G/F listings recently. Just 2 choices and we f it up. Maybe it’s an error. Maybe he sees himself as guard and the coaches don’t. Maybe we recruited him as guard and now pulling the ol’ bait & switch. For Burton sake I hope it’s not the last one although that’s exactly what we’re doing with things like the Ooc schedule.

 

[spider23]

Good point Gkiller, there are a lot of messages from Mooney and now Hardt that say one thing, and then it never happens. I am going to listen to the audio today, but that is funny that Hardt tries to dodge the question.

 

[MrTbone]

If fan2011 were around he’d provide some factual insight into our usage of freshmen which historically CM has done in spite of perception. Anecdotally though, I think that has happened mostly on need maybe more than anything else, ie there was a significant gap in a spot that a freshman was best capable to fill.

I don’t think this is the case with Burton unless nick is not ready, that seems like the most likely path to him getting decent time.

 

[spiderman]

Burton can call himself a point center if he wants. he's a 3 here. hence the "F".
if healthy, Nick is playing 25-30 mpg at the 3.
we're already going to have trouble getting Woj and Goose enough minutes, so they're first in line behind Nick at the 3. Burton has to beat both of them out ... and neither is a slouch.
but Tyler is long and athletic. if he defends like a mad man, he can earn time. but if he doesn't get off the bench yet, it in no way means he's not going to be a really good player.

 

[VT4700]

If fan2011 were around he’d provide some factual insight into our usage of freshmen which historically CM has done in spite of perception. Anecdotally though, I think that has happened mostly on need maybe more than anything else, ie there was a significant gap in a spot that a freshman was best capable to fill.

I don’t think this is the case with Burton unless nick is not ready, that seems like the most likely path to him getting decent time.

Agree with your 1st paragraph, but I don't think Burton's playing time is based solely on Nick being ready or not. It is not like a Grant and Grace situation, where Grace is the ideal guy on our roster to give Grant a break. Now, I do see your point if Nick not being ready means we need another body, which would then possibly be more time for Burton and the other non starters.

But, with all of our non starters young guys, I think by the time conference play gets here, the best guys will likely see the floor the most, regardless of whether they are freshman or sophomores. So, I think Burton's most likely path to getting quality minutes is being ready to play, and being better than the guys he is competing against for playing time, even if Nick is injury free at 30 minutes a game. Also, if we are in a bad match up and getting out rebounded, looks like he could get more time over the other guys based on that.

 

[VT4700]

Burton can call himself a point center if he wants. he's a 3 here. hence the "F".
if healthy, Nick is playing 25-30 mpg at the 3.
we're already going to have trouble getting Woj and Goose enough minutes, so they're first in line behind Nick at the 3. Burton has to beat both of them out ... and neither is a slouch.
but Tyler is long and athletic. if he defends like a mad man, he can earn time. but if he doesn't get off the bench yet, it in no way means he's not going to be a really good player.

Why don't you think Burton can play on the floor with Nick? Couldn't he spell Nate if we are playing against a small lineup? It's not like every A-10 team has a couple of 6'8 and 6'9 studs they throw out there every game. If Nick and Burton are both on the floor, one doesn't have to a "2" (whatever that means now) and the other a "3" (whatever that means). Don't most teams start 3 G and 2 F right now, if not 4 G and 1 F? So where is the "3" even coming from here? And, Woj and Andre don't have to only back up Nick, they can also give a break to Jacob and Blake, which would leave time for Burton if he earns it. If Burton shows he can make enough 3s, he could also play with Nick, Nate, and Grant. We probably want 3 shooters on the floor at most times, which means a combination of Jacob, Blake, Nick, Woj, and Andre, but if Burton can hit the 3, or at least show he can make the 15-18 footer, he can be right there with them. Same with Sal. Don't want to count him out, especially he shows he can shoot.

 

[MrTbone]

Agree with your 1st paragraph, but I don't think Burton's playing time is based solely on Nick being ready or not. It is not like a Grant and Grace situation, where Grace is the ideal guy on our roster to give Grant a break. Now, I do see your point if Nick not being ready means we need another body, which would then possibly be more time for Burton and the other non starters.

But, with all of our non starters young guys, I think by the time conference play gets here, the best guys will likely see the floor the most, regardless of whether they are freshman or sophomores. So, I think Burton's most likely path to getting quality minutes is being ready to play, and being better than the guys he is competing against for playing time, even if Nick is injury free at 30 minutes a game. Also, if we are in a bad match up and getting out rebounded, looks like he could get more time over the other guys based on that.

I guess I see Burton playing more like a 3 like SMan said. I see Wojcik doing more of a 2 role and then Andre maybe slots in anywhere from 1–3. I recognize of course I’m positioning people in our positionless system.

My main point is I think burtons biggest competition in front of him is Nick. Andre is next and thereafter you’re talking about people who don’t necessarily project as the same roletypes either physically or in terms of skill set. It just feels pretty crowded to me to expect a lot of minutes from Burton unless there’s a dramatic shift in player availability.

 

[spiderman]

I didn't mean to imply Woj and Goose were only backing up Nick. of course they're guards and will spell our starting guards. but I'm 100% buying the Francis hype so I believe Gilyard and Francis are likely approaching 35 mpg each at the 1 and 2 spots. which means there could be precious few backup guard minutes there for 2 good players.

so I think they'll also back up Nick, or fight for those backup minutes with Burton.

I don't see a reason to play Burton at the 2 when we have the quality we have there. and I certainly don't see the reason to play him at the 4 when I think Cayo is terrific and we're all trying to see Sal more for all the backup minutes there. Burton's my future starting 3 and he can call himself a guard all day.

 

[VT4700]

I guess I see Burton playing more like a 3 like SMan said. I see Wojcik doing more of a 2 role and then Andre maybe slots in anywhere from 1–3. I recognize of course I’m positioning people in our positionless system.

My main point is I think burtons biggest competition in front of him is Nick. Andre is next and thereafter you’re talking about people who don’t necessarily project as the same roletypes either physically or in terms of skill set. It just feels pretty crowded to me to expect a lot of minutes from Burton unless there’s a dramatic shift in player availability.

I can see your point, but I guess I am hoping Burton can show enough and be versatile enough that we can plug him for anyone other than Jacob and Grant. Same with most of the others.

As far as Woj being a "2", can't he also be on the floor with Jacob and Blake? I just think it seems crazy to limit these guys to positions when every opponent is different and every game situation is different. But, I know we disagree on that so no big deal.

 

[VT4700]

I didn't mean to imply Woj and Goose were only backing up Nick. of course they're guards and will spell our starting guards. but I'm 100% buying the Francis hype so I believe Gilyard and Francis are likely approaching 35 mpg each at the 1 and 2 spots. which means there could be precious few backup guard minutes there for 2 good players.

so I think they'll also back up Nick, or fight for those backup minutes with Burton.

I don't see a reason to play Burton at the 2 when we have the quality we have there. and I certainly don't see the reason to play him at the 4 when I think Cayo is terrific and we're all trying to see Sal more for all the backup minutes there. Burton's my future starting 3 and he can call himself a guard all day.

Okay, I see your point a little better now, but we are just in different zip codes when it comes to the "2", the "3" and the "4". Are you saying only Sal should back up Nate? What if Sal is our 9th or 10th best player? Should he back up Nate just so we can call him a "4" and have a "needed 4" out there, regardless of the match up? Sounds like you are concerned with having a 2,3, and 4 out there at all times when teams are just not doing that anymore.

 

[VT4700]

I know we are not UVA, but what better example of college basketball than them. Remember their lineup for most of the tournament? Against Auburn, they played 7 guys and played:

5'9 (if that) Clark for 36 minutes
6'1 Guy 39
6'4 Jerome 33
6'7 Hunter 37
6'9 Diakite 36

Their non starters played only 19 minutes and it would have been less if Jerome didn't get in foul trouble.

Against Oregon, those 5 all played 35 or more minutes and their reserves played 7,3, and 1 minute. Why could they get away with such a small lineup? Because college basketball is full of lineups like this, at their level and at our level.

Then, in the title game, Key plays 29 minutes after only playing 10 against Auburn and 7 against Oregon. Why? Match ups. For those worried about depth, only 6 guys got more than 4 minutes in a 45 minute game. At their level or ours, you don't just have a set back up for a guy and say that is how it will be all year, unless it is a big and you need at least one guy with size out there.

We are talking the highest level against the best guards and forwards out there, but does anyone see a 1,2,3,4, and 5? Who's the 4 here? What I see is 3 Gs and 2 Fs, even 4 G and 1 F the way Hunter played, and a bunch of versatile guys. I will say it again, we are not UVA, but this is where college basketball has been headed for years now. It is time to stop worrying about a 2,3, and 4.

 

[spiderman]

position-less is one thing, but being too small at every spot doesn't work either.

by the way ... in what world is Diakite a forward and not a center? nobody's a center anymore? he's totally a center.

 

[VT4700]

position-less is one thing, but being too small at every spot doesn't work either.

by the way ... in what world is Diakite a forward and not a center? nobody's a center anymore? he's totally a center.

I guess it comes down to what your definition of a center is. He never posted up. He didn't just stay inside all the time. Virginia listed him as a forward, so I guess in their world he is one, and they actually list centers because Jack Salt was listed as a center. I've always thought of him as a forward offensively and defensively, but it really doesn't matter as far as my point is concerned.

As far as being small doesn't work? UVA begs to differ.

 

[BuckinghamPalace]

As far as being small doesn't work? UVA begs to differ.

Depends on your definition of small. They had a backcourt with a 6'5 guard and 6'2 shooting guard. Hunter and Diakite are in the 6'7 to 6'9 range with Salt at 6'10 and Huff over 7 feet. The only small guy they played was Clark at 5'9.

 

[spiderman]

yeah, this whole "nobody is a center" thing these days is annoying. Diakite is 6'9" 228. size-wise he wants to be called a forward because that's not big enough to be a center in the NBA. but in college he covers the other team's biggest guy, he blocks shots, and he only made 5 three pointers. he's a center.

we call Grant a forward too. why? because he shoots from outside?
Patrick Ewing was a forward then too, I guess.

 

[VT4700]

Depends on your definition of small. They had a backcourt with a 6'5 guard and 6'2 shooting guard. Hunter and Diakite are in the 6'7 to 6'9 range with Salt at 6'10 and Huff over 7 feet. The only small guy they played was Clark at 5'9.

?? Guy was barely over 6 feet (measured under 6'1 at combine) and Clark is not even 5'9, so I would define that as small. But, very very productive. Those two played a lot, and when you add in Jerome at 6'4 or 6'5 playing a lot, yes, that is small, but, yes, very very productive. So, they were small for about 90% of the time on the court. Not sure how this is even debatable when you look at the lineup I listed above, but no big deal. It is all opinion, so you can say they were not small.

 

[VT4700]

yeah, this whole "nobody is a center" thing these days is annoying. Diakite is 6'9" 228. size-wise he wants to be called a forward because that's not big enough to be a center in the NBA. but in college he covers the other team's biggest guy, he blocks shots, and he only made 5 three pointers. he's a center.

we call Grant a forward too. why? because he shoots from outside?
Patrick Ewing was a forward then too, I guess.

Not trying to annoy anyone. Sorry about that. I actually agree there are a few centers out there, just like there are PGs. My main point is teams don't worry about having a main 2, 3, and 4.

 

[spider fan]

Unless Tony Bennett becomes our coach any comparison to UVA basketball is meaningless.

 

[spiderman]

Salt started 29 games and played almost half the game. he's a big dude. Diakite is 6'9" 228 and played 22 mpg. Braxton is 6'8" 225 and played 20 mpg. Huff played 10 mpg at 7'1" 232. Hunter's got good size too.

their perimeter was certainly shorter than most.

 

[spiderman]

Not trying to annoy anyone. Sorry about that. I actually agree there are a few centers out there, just like there are PGs. My main point is teams don't worry about having a main 2, 3, and 4.

didn't mean you annoyed me. just that the guard/forward/center labels have changed to the point where it annoys me!

a team can do different things with a lineup, but I still think whether you call them 1 thru 5 or not ... they still fall into those roles.

I love a 2 PG backcourt. it's harder to define a PG these days as so many are just short scoring guards, but having 2 that can handle is an asset.

there's really no difference between a true 2 and a 3 other than height. neither is a primary ball handler, and both should be able to shoot these days. if one guys stays outside more ... he's the 2. if the other slashes ... he's the 3.

a 4 is just like a 3 but has to be able to defend a bigger player. he's expected to rebound more, though obviously you'd love to get rebounding from every position.

a 5 is your big guy who has to be able to defend a post player. what he does on offense doesn't matter. a guy with no perimeter game is easily defined as a 5, but a guy like Golden is still a 5. you want one of these on the floor. you don't really want 2.

 

[BuckinghamPalace]

?? Guy was barely over 6 feet (measured under 6'1 at combine) and Clark is not even 5'9, so I would define that as small. But, very very productive. Those two played a lot, and when you add in Jerome at 6'4 or 6'5 playing a lot, yes, that is small, but, yes, very very productive. So, they were small for about 90% of the time on the court. Not sure how this is even debatable when you look at the lineup I listed above, but no big deal. It is all opinion, so you can say they were not small.

OK but last time I checked Kyle Guy plays with shoes on and he is listed just over 6'2 ( Measured 6'0.75 without shoes, 6'2.25; with shoes). Their starting guards had good size at 6'5 and 6'2.

 

[VT4700]

OK but last time I checked Kyle Guy plays with shoes on and he is listed just over 6'2 ( Measured 6'0.75 without shoes, 6'2.25; with shoes). Their starting guards had good size at 6'5 and 6'2.

So, you just ignoring Clark?

 

[MrTbone]

I can see your point, but I guess I am hoping Burton can show enough and be versatile enough that we can plug him for anyone other than Jacob and Grant. Same with most of the others.

As far as Woj being a "2", can't he also be on the floor with Jacob and Blake? I just think it seems crazy to limit these guys to positions when every opponent is different and every game situation is different. But, I know we disagree on that so no big deal.

I don't think you can run those three guys out there, that means you're 5-9, 6-0, and 6-2? I think it's just too small a line-up defensively unless of course we're facing someone going similarly small. We just haven't faced many if any competition that puts out a lineup as small as ours in the guard spots.

 

[spiderman]

Woj is listed at 6'4".

 

[VT4700]

Salt started 29 games and played almost half the game. he's a big dude. Diakite is 6'9" 228 and played 22 mpg. Braxton is 6'8" 225 and played 20 mpg. Huff played 10 mpg at 7'1" 232. Hunter's got good size too.

their perimeter was certainly shorter than most.

I can call Salt a center. No one else you mentioned I would call a center, but not sure what we are debating or why it even matters at this point. If you want to call Diakite a center, that's fine with me. I was simply pointing out Virginia played with a very very small lineup their final 3 games with heavy minutes for four guys 6'7 and under, 3 guys 6'5 and under, and one of those not even 5'8. But, man, were they good!

 

[VT4700]

didn't mean you annoyed me. just that the guard/forward/center labels have changed to the point where it annoys me!

a team can do different things with a lineup, but I still think whether you call them 1 thru 5 or not ... they still fall into those roles.

I love a 2 PG backcourt. it's harder to define a PG these days as so many are just short scoring guards, but having 2 that can handle is an asset.

there's really no difference between a true 2 and a 3 other than height. neither is a primary ball handler, and both should be able to shoot these days. if one guys stays outside more ... he's the 2. if the other slashes ... he's the 3.

a 4 is just like a 3 but has to be able to defend a bigger player. he's expected to rebound more, though obviously you'd love to get rebounding from every position.

a 5 is your big guy who has to be able to defend a post player. what he does on offense doesn't matter. a guy with no perimeter game is easily defined as a 5, but a guy like Golden is still a 5. you want one of these on the floor. you don't really want 2.

I can agree with a lot of this.

 

[BuckinghamPalace]

So, you just ignoring Clark?

I thought I mentioned Clark in my post. He is listed a 5'9 and a solid defensive player. I guess we disagree on their size. When I watched them last season I always felt that they had lots of size from the backcourt to the frontcourt.

 

[Eight Legger]

Instead of names on the backs of our jerseys, I understand that this year, the uniforms will just say "Basketball Player" on the back.

 

[VT4700]

I thought I mentioned Clark in my post. He is listed a 5'9 and a solid defensive player. I guess we disagree on their size. When I watched them last season I always felt that they had lots of size from the backcourt to the frontcourt.

Obviously, more than enough size because they rarely lost. At times, they played with pretty good size, but certainly went through long stretches without a lot on the floor. I was mainly talking about the tournament, how they went small and took care of business. That was a special team that was really fun to watch.

 

[MrTbone]

Woj is listed at 6'4".

i'm not sure it makes a ton of difference as my point is you've got two guys 6' and under at the guard spots. I think we can absorb one undersized guy without it exposing the D too much, but I think 2 undersized players causes a much bigger issue, you're already at the breaking point already. Woj may be 6-4 (looks shorter than that to me) but I think he isn't that long/athletic so I'd expect serious defensive woes anytime we have those three guys on the floor together.

I don't really think that's the plan, which was the point of my original note on this.

 

[GKiller]

How bout Burton at point forward. Since positions and what he's called doesn't matter I say he'll be our Scottie Pippen or Magic.

Final 4 or bust