Someone had to say it

KE Spider

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I’m giving CM another chance but it flies in the face of most of the data.
Data are meaningless to some here other than a few selected years. Guess they would counter with "past results do not guarantee future performance"....and most fans sincerely would hope so.
 

brooklyn brownstone

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Partly the frustration is Moon not being able to win consistently at a high clip commensurate to what - we as fans, likely them as coaches - believe the talent level of the team is. This year and others through his tenure.

As others say, another part of the frustration is that the continuity to continue winning at a 65%+ clip after losing a class of talented players is something that Moon has never been able to do. Not just 1 year drop offs and back up above that level, he's granted full multi-year rebuilds, some of which never bear fruit. Sman, you often have posted about reloading on this board over the years. I don't see the history of it supporting Moon's case. Not at all. This year was what we hoped a reload would be by adding veteran players with proven college experience and productivity.

I continue to hear the Moon supporters talk about the talent on this team. Well, we're 3-4 and just got smoked giving up 90 points. I don't know where else to look.

I suspect others feel the same and that these are the main arguments, even if they get diluted in the fray.
 

urfan1

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over the 50 years i have followed this program, it seems to me we lay down at lest one "stinker" at exam time. Hopefully last night was it and we will not see a repeat on Saturday. Why schedule 2 games the week before exams? Let the guys prepare for their exams.
 

spider23

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Yes, I recall getting waxed by either Georgia or Bama by 35 early one season with Tarrant, then going on to the NCAAs. However in thus case we already gave away three very very winnable games. If we had won 2 out of those 3 thus one is easier to write off.

I do agree with Brooklyn, no history of re loading. Failure to land legit interior players being the main issue I have, with loss of Reed looming large considering Quinn's play so far. Thought Quinn looked pretty decent vs Cuse, but can't seem to keep the aggressive needed so far in many games.
 

urmite

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Yes, I recall getting waxed by either Georgia or Bama by 35 early one season with Tarrant, then going on to the NCAAs. However in thus case we already gave away three very very winnable games. If we had won 2 out of those 3 thus one is easier to write off.

I do agree with Brooklyn, no history of re loading. Failure to land legit interior players being the main issue I have, with loss of Reed looming large considering Quinn's play so far. Thought Quinn looked pretty decent vs Cuse, but can't seem to keep the aggressive needed so far in many games.
November 1988 loss to Bama in CFB Tournament but close.
In November 1990 loss 90-45 to UGA. Gerald Jarmon second game. Next game Curtis Blair at point, beat ranked GA Tech, and then Cuse in March?
 
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spider23

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I do recall that game vs Ga tech, I feel like Tarrant tried Jarmon and Burroughs at PG vs one Kenny Anderson, who gave them a few lessons, and quickly inserted Blair at PG.

I remember it was a back and forth between Eugene Burroughs and Gerald Jarmon at PG that season (both became very good players for us). I remember seeing Blair in the dining hall before one game and asked him who was starting at point, his answer: Eugerald :):):)
 

VT4700

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Yes, I recall getting waxed by either Georgia or Bama by 35 early one season with Tarrant, then going on to the NCAAs. However in thus case we already gave away three very very winnable games. If we had won 2 out of those 3 thus one is easier to write off.

I do agree with Brooklyn, no history of re loading. Failure to land legit interior players being the main issue I have, with loss of Reed looming large considering Quinn's play so far. Thought Quinn looked pretty decent vs Cuse, but can't seem to keep the aggressive needed so far in many games.
I remember JMU beating us 77-43 in the midnight game, and then we came back and beat them in the tourney finals to make the dance.
 

urmite

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I do recall that game vs Ga tech, I feel like Tarrant tried Jarmon and Burroughs at PG vs one Kenny Anderson, who gave them a few lessons, and quickly inserted Blair at PG.

I remember it was a back and forth between Eugene Burroughs and Gerald Jarmon at PG that season (both became very good players for us). I remember seeing Blair in the dining hall before one game and asked him who was starting at point, his answer: Eugerald :):):)
I feel like we had 32 turnovers vs UGA, and remember my father assuming that was going to be average that season...
 

spider23

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I remember JMU beating us 77-43 in the midnight game, and then we came back and beat them in the tourney finals to make the dance.
Haha, I was at that game in Harrisonburg, staying with h.s. friends that went to JMU. The midnight massacre game. Then again, I was at the game when we beat them in the CAA final to go to the dance. I have mentioned it on here before, but my group of friends (UR students) were still hanging around the court post game enjoying the moment, and Steve Hood from JMU stopped by and congratulated our group on the win and for supporting our team. Class act.
 

urmite

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I remember JMU beating us 77-43 in the midnight game, and then we came back and beat them in the tourney finals to make the dance.
That was the year before.

I always remember us beating them close at home & close in the CAA Tourney both after Midnight Madness.
But the home game was 1/8/1990 by 11
Midnight 2/2/1990
CAA 3/5/1990 by 5

richmond_1990_schedule_1.jpg
 

urmite

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Haha, I was at that game in Harrisonburg, staying with h.s. friends that went to JMU. The midnight massacre game. Then again, I was at the game when we beat them in the CAA final to go to the dance. I have mentioned it on here before, but my group of friends (UR students) were still hanging around the court post game enjoying the moment, and Steve Hood from JMU stopped by and congratulated our group on the win and for supporting our team. Class act.
My father & I were beside the JMU pep band for that whole tournament, every time JMU was playing.

My mother came for the final. When the band returned after halftime, they sat in a different location...because my mother was too loud... 🤣

Then a JMU student flipped her the bird after the game while she was chanting "NIT"...
Hood was classy, JMU students not so much...
 

SpiderTrap

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When you consistently get down by 15-20 points in games and rely on battling back, your going to have games that end up in 20 point loss. I would not expect the Toledo game to be the last this season. We were able to fight back against Toledo, but the effort involved in doing so takes a toll and when the other team can respond quickly, like Toledo did - it results in 20 point loss. We got within 6 points, but then they responded and took it back to 11 and then went on a run and jumped to 19 in a minute.

So while this type of loss is not a surprise, I would not expect it to be the last this season.
 

mr.spider

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Personally, I am going to give us credit for making the tournament again this year, because we clearly would have if there had been a second pandemic that prompted another additional year of eligibility this year.
In fact, we would have made each of the last 7 years, if we hadn't found ourselves in this weird extenuating circumstance where we were forced to keep a really bad coach.
 

spider23

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My father & I were beside the JMU pep band for that whole tournament, every time JMU was playing.

My mother came for the final. When the band returned after halftime, they sat in a different location...because my mother was too loud... 🤣

Then a JMU student flipped her the bird after the game while she was chanting "NIT"...
Hood was classy, JMU students not so much...
No problem, I got them. One year, at the coliseum, we rolled up the big JMU band banner right after the game. Me and my buddy just walked up, as the band was dispersing, unpinned it, and rolled it up and walked out. I could use some lessons in class from Steve Hood.
 
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VT4700

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No problem, I got them. One year, at the coliseum, we rolled up the big JMU band banner right after the game. Me and my buddy just walked up, as the band was dispersing, unpinned it, and rolled it up and walked out. I could use some lessons in class from Steve Hood.
LOL. I was just ready to respond to urmite and say if the roles were reversed I bet some Spider students would flip off JMU fans if they were saying NIT. Looks like you took that up a notch. 😀
 
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GKiller

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I do recall that game vs Ga tech, I feel like Tarrant tried Jarmon and Burroughs at PG vs one Kenny Anderson, who gave them a few lessons, and quickly inserted Blair at PG.

I remember it was a back and forth between Eugene Burroughs and Gerald Jarmon at PG that season (both became very good players for us). I remember seeing Blair in the dining hall before one game and asked him who was starting at point, his answer: Eugerald :):):)
Eugerald. That made me laugh. Should have been formal nickname for that backcourt. While it had some resemblances to Mooney’s two small guard lineups I still have a soft spot for it. I also enjoyed Jarmon putting my buddy in his place in the carpet gym.
 
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spiderman

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Sman, you often have posted about reloading on this board over the years. I don't see the history of it supporting Moon's case. Not at all. This year was what we hoped a reload would be by adding veteran players with proven college experience and productivity.

I continue to hear the Moon supporters talk about the talent on this team. Well, we're 3-4 and just got smoked giving up 90 points. I don't know where else to look.

I suspect others feel the same and that these are the main arguments, even if they get diluted in the fray.
we did as good a job in the portal as could be hoped for, but we didn't reload with equal replacements for Golden and Gilyard.

I don't want to be overly negative after a loss, but we're no where near as good offensively as last year. I know people will point to the defense because we just gave up 90, but that's because we were forced to press so much. it caused some excitement with turnovers for a minute, but it wasn't sustainable. we give up too many easy baskets when pressing like that. offensively we were 10-31 from 2 point range. with 13 turnovers again.
 
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VT4700

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we did as good a job in the portal as could be hoped for, but we didn't reload with equal replacements for Golden and Gilyard.

I don't want to be overly negative after a loss, but we're no where near as good offensively as last year. I know people will point to the defense because we just gave up 90, but that's because we were forced to press so much. it caused some excitement with turnovers for a minute, but it wasn't sustainable. we give up too many easy baskets when pressing like that. offensively we were 10-31 from 2 point range. with 13 turnovers again.
I'm not ready to say we are nowhere near as good offensively as last year. Let's see how we do when Grace gets back. I think he will make a big difference. I compare it to maybe 2020 when Grace was younger and what would have happened if we lost Grant for a few games. It's going to affect us. Was I hoping Quinn would be a little farther along and be more of a factor right now? Yes. But, he's not there right now. I think against Charleston, we were just starting to go to Grace more often and he responded. Add in Roche's 3s, which we did not have last year, and I think we can be a good offensive team.
 
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plydogg

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Good point sman. Last season through 7 games we had 540 points. This year we have 479. Worth noting that last year we were also 3-4 through 7 games. So this is a solid comparison.

77.15 PPG vs 68.43 PPG, so that difference of a little over 8.5 points is definitely making a difference. Especially when looking at our 3 one possession losses.

Also last season we shot 47% to 41.8% through the opening seven games.

I think the bigger issue is our assist to turnover ratio. Last season through 7 games it was 126:71

This year….90:90

That has to be addressed by the coaching staff
 

VT4700

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Our offensive efficiency is 123rd right now. Last year, we were 94th. We definitely need to get that number up. Hopefully, it will improve with Grace back and maybe more minutes and looks for Roche.
 

SpiderGuy

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When you consistently get down by 15-20 points in games and rely on battling back, your going to have games that end up in 20 point loss. I would not expect the Toledo game to be the last this season. We were able to fight back against Toledo, but the effort involved in doing so takes a toll and when the other team can respond quickly, like Toledo did - it results in 20 point loss. We got within 6 points, but then they responded and took it back to 11 and then went on a run and jumped to 19 in a minute.

So while this type of loss is not a surprise, I would not expect it to be the last this season.
I was wondering the same thing. Too many games so far playing from a dug in hole. This isn't a formula for success i.e. - chasing from behind. After we got to 6 down, it stalled, & I don't think we were ever w/in reasonable reach. Not a good pattern to start the year. Several games now.

I'm thinking some conference games close this season & hopefully not many looking like Toledo.
 

mojo-spider

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Haha, I was at that game in Harrisonburg, staying with h.s. friends that went to JMU. The midnight massacre game. Then again, I was at the game when we beat them in the CAA final to go to the dance. I have mentioned it on here before, but my group of friends (UR students) were still hanging around the court post game enjoying the moment, and Steve Hood from JMU stopped by and congratulated our group on the win and for supporting our team. Class act.
Coach Tarrant had Lefty's number...not sure what his record was overall versus Driesell, but believe he beat him every time they played in the CAA Championship game...was it twice?

Winning those CAA Championships at the Coliseum, was really fun!

Go Spiders!
 
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Spiders4ever

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over the 50 years i have followed this program, it seems to me we lay down at lest one "stinker" at exam time. Hopefully last night was it and we will not see a repeat on Saturday. Why schedule 2 games the week before exams? Let the guys prepare for their exams.
You look so young in your photo.
 
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VT4700

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Coach Tarrant had Lefty's number...not sure what his record was overall versus Driesell, but believe he beat him every time they played in the CAA Championship game...was it twice?

Winning those CAA Championships at the Coliseum, was really fun!

Go Spiders!
Tarrant was 7-5 against Lefty. 1-0 in the CAA tourney.
 

SpiderTrap

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I was wondering the same thing. Too many games so far playing from a dug in hole. This isn't a formula for success i.e. - chasing from behind. After we got to 6 down, it stalled, & I don't think we were ever w/in reasonable reach. Not a good pattern to start the year. Several games now.

I'm thinking some conference games close this season & hopefully not many looking like Toledo.
I am not saying all game will end like Toledo, but based on the pattern we have seen and unless we fix our pattern of getting behind by huge amounts, there will likely be more games, maybe 3-4 where we get behind, fight back, but then fall behind again and run out of gas and at the end - look up at the scoreboard, we lost by 18-20-22 points.
 
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I am not down on this year - I thought from the beginning, this year was an NIT year for this team and I think they still have a shot at doing just that.

We are 3-3, if we can go 5-2 before A10 play, that gets us 8-5. Not NCAA conversation by any means, but I think the best basketball for this team is ahead of them. I think we can fight for that 4th-6th position in the A10. And if we can do that - we got a shot at the NIT. The other best case scenario is similar to last year - this team starts to play best ball at end of the year and goes on a run in the A10 tourney. And with one of the best players in the league in Burton, and I think by the end of the year Nelson will be playing better and better - we got a shot.

If we miss the NIT this year - so be it. I am not saying fire Mooney. But we will need to be back in the post-season - NIT or NCAA next year. And with the guys we have returning, although losing Burton hurts - I don't think there is any reason to think we will not be a good team next year as well.
This is the most realistic post I've seen on here in a while, as far as expectations. Word, Trap.
 

spider23

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OK , since Trap made such a good point - and no its not a bad one. BUT - if we are an NIT team (if that tourney still exists or anyone pays attention), how do we make the leap to NCAA team the following year - considering we lose a borderline NBA guy in Burton (and top rebounder) and our only effective inside player so far in Grace? And yes Bigelow plays in there but he is a wing. We lost our top interior recruit, Quinn - while he can improve does not look like he will be as versatile as Grace. Yes, Nelson will be seasoned and we will return Bigs/Dji/Randolph/Roche. But if this team cannot compete for an NCAA bid this year, it seems a bit of a stretch to see where we improve so much next.
 

SpiderTrap

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Agreed - lets assume NIT this year. To be NCAA next year, we need returning "key" guys - Roche, Nelson, and Quinn to make improvements and become 3 solid guys that can be count on.

I can't remember Bigelow - does he get another year - if he does, then you throw him in the mix and we got a solid 4. But even without him - we got a solid 3, mix in a newcomer. We should be more experienced next year, and hopefully that turns into better play - even losing our best player in Burton.

Next year starting you got Quinn, Bigelow, Roche, and Nelson - that is a solid 4 right there. Add 3 role guys around them, and I think we got a bubble shot.

But based on what I have seen so far - it will rely a lot on the progression of Quinn and Nelson. I feel better about Nelson at this point than Quinn. I could see Nelson being an all-league guy next year, but not sure if I see that out of Quinn yet.
 
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SpiderTrap

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Agreed - it says a lot if Grace is the savior for this team.

I think the worse part of Grace not playing right now is not getting him and everyone else time playing together. I have thought all along, even before the season started - that this team would struggle in the OOC but hopefully by A10 play - they would be heading in the right direction. Now I worry with Grace missing a few games, that might set us back a bit and it might take him some time to get back in the swing of things.

I still think this team can put together a nice little win streak. Hopefully by end of the season - we are clicking and ready for the A10 tourney.
 
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VT4700

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Agreed - lets assume NIT this year. To be NCAA next year, we need returning "key" guys - Roche, Nelson, and Quinn to make improvements and become 3 solid guys that can be count on.

I can't remember Bigelow - does he get another year - if he does, then you throw him in the mix and we got a solid 4. But even without him - we got a solid 3, mix in a newcomer. We should be more experienced next year, and hopefully that turns into better play - even losing our best player in Burton.

Next year starting you got Quinn, Bigelow, Roche, and Nelson - that is a solid 4 right there. Add 3 role guys around them, and I think we got a bubble shot.

But based on what I have seen so far - it will rely a lot on the progression of Quinn and Nelson. I feel better about Nelson at this point than Quinn. I could see Nelson being an all-league guy next year, but not sure if I see that out of Quinn yet.
Add Trevor Smith to your 4 and that's a pretty good starting 5 if Quinn can improve and be a key factor. Noyes and Walz with front court depth. Randolph, Tanner, Dji, and Dread with backcourt depth. Narrow these 11 down to about 8 and there you go. Also, 2 spots left for impact transfers, even more if 1 or 2 guys transfer out. I'm not writing off this year or next year. Go Spiders!!!
 

GKiller

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Just not a fan of punting on ncaa prospects in any year. Good programs even good non power conf programs don’t do that imo. If we rely on A10 tourney run it’s a crapshoot our odds no better than what we’ve shown, 1 for every 8 years. U can punt on ncaa some years if you’ve been to ncaa w more regularity. We have not.

How many times have we put ourselves in at large position after the OOC schedule since 2010? Once for sure 19-20’. Maybe a Cedrick Lindsay year idk. But it’s an ongoing issue.
 
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I put this in another thread earlier, but it looks like it is a better fit here:

Those who have watched the first 7-games and still think that this is an NIT or NCAA team, good on ya! All evidence thus far points to a .500 or below finish. Pre-season, I predicted 17-13 or so, but, at this point, that looks to be a bit generous.

Of course it is always possible to go on a magical run, but unlikely. I don't see the optimism regarding next year either. With Reed I would share some optimism, but without him the Spider frontcourt is likely worse or a wash next season. Quinn has much further to go than I expected. Doesn't mean that improvement isn't possible, but big improvement (enough to consistently win at a high level) is less likely rather than more likely.

Smith looks like a really good recruit for next year, but he is a guard who will likely battle with or replace Nelson. Doubt that they will play that much together. If Smith is a knockdown shooter, it may change things, but he hasn't been advertised as such. If Nelson & Smith play a lot together, that pushes Roche (because he has to play a lot) to the frontcourt which could present defensive and rebounding challenges. I do think that Roche is a better defender than he gets credit for, but he is small to be matched up with a big night-after-night.

If a .500 or less team coached by Mooney loses 3-starters and replaces them with 1-quality freshman (who most likely will battle for a spot with a sophomore) the future of said season isn't likely to be NIT or NCAA. Dreaming and hoping is everyone's prerogative, but, it seems to me that evidence (to date) doesn't support the optimism.

The portal could help again, time will tell. I think that the portal is a very good strategy to supplement a team. It does not appear to be a great strategy to turn an average team into an NCAA contender.
 

SpiderTrap

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Does Bigelow have another season cause of COVID? Can he return to UR next year?

He redshirted frosh year at Wofford.
Played Soph year.
Sat out Junior Year - ACL Tear
Senior Year - Wofford
Grad Year - UR.

Does he get another year because of COVID and the Redshirt year? Or does he have to apply for a medical waiver because of the ACL injury to get another season. I would think he has another season because of COVID if he wants it.
 

spiderman

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he has it if he wants it. Mooney said when he commited that all 3 transfers have multiple years.
 

SFspidur

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Yeah, it was said at the time of his transfer that he had two years of eligibility left.

I actually haven't been 100% clear on how he gets the extra, but obviously he will have only played three years at the end of this season. My understanding of the COVID extension is that it is for players whose 2020-21 seasons were affected by the COVID shortening. But he was out with injury for the entire season, so is he considered affected?

This JOC article mentions both a medical redshirt and the COVID bonus year, so it's still a bit fuzzy.

Regardless, however it played out he's apparently getting 6 years to play 4.
 
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urmite

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I put this in another thread earlier, but it looks like it is a better fit here:

Those who have watched the first 7-games and still think that this is an NIT or NCAA team, good on ya! All evidence thus far points to a .500 or below finish. Pre-season, I predicted 17-13 or so, but, at this point, that looks to be a bit generous.

Of course it is always possible to go on a magical run, but unlikely. I don't see the optimism regarding next year either. With Reed I would share some optimism, but without him the Spider frontcourt is likely worse or a wash next season. Quinn has much further to go than I expected. Doesn't mean that improvement isn't possible, but big improvement (enough to consistently win at a high level) is less likely rather than more likely.

Smith looks like a really good recruit for next year, but he is a guard who will likely battle with or replace Nelson. Doubt that they will play that much together. If Smith is a knockdown shooter, it may change things, but he hasn't been advertised as such. If Nelson & Smith play a lot together, that pushes Roche (because he has to play a lot) to the frontcourt which could present defensive and rebounding challenges. I do think that Roche is a better defender than he gets credit for, but he is small to be matched up with a big night-after-night.

If a .500 or less team coached by Mooney loses 3-starters and replaces them with 1-quality freshman (who most likely will battle for a spot with a sophomore) the future of said season isn't likely to be NIT or NCAA. Dreaming and hoping is everyone's prerogative, but, it seems to me that evidence (to date) doesn't support the optimism.

The portal could help again, time will tell. I think that the portal is a very good strategy to supplement a team. It does not appear to be a great strategy to turn an average team into an NCAA contender.
It seemed pre-season consensus was 18-13, after 3 games, even with a loss, many were moving to 19-12, now 18-13 again.

If everyone stays healthy and they play as a team could be better, and they have definitely shown it could be worse. Although 8-23, or 10-21 is still a stretch...
 

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