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Playing the Ivies

FrontRoyalSpider

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Jun 20, 2011
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I am surprised that the Ivy League schools agree to play FCS schools that have students on athletic schollies.

I have a niece who is a grad of Brown and played tennis. She told me she got a scholarship, but not an athletic one due to the Ivies don't offer athletic scholarships.
 
I am surprised that the Ivy League schools agree to play FCS schools that have students on athletic schollies.

I have a niece who is a grad of Brown and played tennis. She told me she got a scholarship, but not an athletic one due to the Ivies don't offer athletic scholarships.
Ivies meet full financial need of those who are admitted (without loans). All financial aid is need-based among the Ancient 8. Ivy football squads get 120 admissions slots over a four year period -- considerably more than FBS at 85 scholarship maximum and 63 maximum at FCS level. Quite a bit of attrition in Ivy programs, but they don't "own" their players, either. Also worthy of consideration, most Ivies take less than 10% of a highly-qualified applicant pool each year, with Harvard, Yale, and Princeton accepting in the neighborhood of 5%. Academic Index and admission "bands" determine if an athlete qualifies for admission, but then it's up to coaches' needs/wants and admissions office cooperation.
 
Ray Tate (R.I.P.) said it best when asked about schools that only offer "need based" scholarships. Ray said, "Let me explain what that means; if they NEED a running back, he gets a scholarship, if they NEED a quarterback, he gets a scholarship. That's really what "need based" means." Division 3 schools don't give athletic scholarships either but I personally know a young man that received a full ride to Hampden-Sydney and did not have the grades for an academic scholarship nor did his family need financial help, but he did play both football and lacrosse at a pretty high level.
 
Ray Tate (R.I.P.) said it best when asked about schools that only offer "need based" scholarships. Ray said, "Let me explain what that means; if they NEED a running back, he gets a scholarship, if they NEED a quarterback, he gets a scholarship. That's really what "need based" means." Division 3 schools don't give athletic scholarships either but I personally know a young man that received a full ride to Hampden-Sydney and did not have the grades for an academic scholarship nor did his family need financial help, but he did play both football and lacrosse at a pretty high level.
H-S Tigers not likely to join the ranks of the Ivies anytime soon...
 
No, but they both claim "need based" scholarships.
Not scholarships in the case of the Ivies. The eight institutions of the Ivy League do not offer "merit scholarships", but exclusively provide need-based financial aid for those who are admitted and qualify based on extensive financial aid forms. Qualifications for admission to Ivy League schools (even for talented athletes) are extremely competitive and only the most highly sought after athletes who ALSO have strong grades and SAT/ACT scores are considered for admission. If you are still skeptical, check the admissions statistics for Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Penn, Brown, Cornell, and Columbia and compare to the stats for any school you choose...
 
Someone, please help me understand this discussion. How do the Ivies get 120 admission slots over 4 years, more than FBS schools even though they are categorized by the NCAA as FCS, and how do the Service Academies ostensibly get an unlimited amount of scholarships since everyone at the Service Academy schools gets a free ride?
What is it that keeps the Service Academies from offering everyone in the world an athletic scholarship since everyone that gets in gets everything paid for without regard to need?
Where does the NCAA draw the line or where is the rule, with both the Ivies and the Service Academies, that makes it fair for us non-Ivy, non-Service Academy schools, to compete with them with only 63 scholarships available?
I am sure that the answer is right there in front of me, but I cannot quite pick it up. I get that the Ivies, and to a lesser extent, the Service Academies, have pretty high entrance requirements, but so do we and we seem to be competing for the same athletes in both of our major sports, and I am sure that the schools of say the Patriot League and others, such as W&M, are as well.
How is that fair?
 
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when I lived in NE I had some coworkers who played sports football, baseball at Harvard but never paid a dime in tuition. And frankly they were not the brightest bulbs either.
 
Someone, please help me understand this discussion. How do the Ivies get 120 admission slots over 4 years, more than FBS schools even though they are categorized by the NCAA as FCS, and how do the Service Academies ostensibly get an unlimited amount of scholarships since everyone at the Service Academy schools gets a free ride?
What is it that keeps the Service Academies from offering everyone in the world an athletic scholarship since everyone that gets in gets everything paid for without regard to need?
Where does the NCAA draw the line or where is the rule, with both the Ivies and the Service Academies, that makes it fair for us non-Ivy, non-Service Academy schools, to compete with them with only 63 scholarships available?
I am sure that the answer is right there in front of me, but I cannot quite pick it up. I get that the Ivies, and to a lesser extent, the Service Academies, have pretty high entrance requirements, but so do we and we seem to be competing for the same athletes in both of our major sports, and I am sure that the schools of say the Patriot League and others, such as W&M, are as well.
How is that fair?

Here is how it is "fair." The Service Academies offer a very difficult path to the professional ranks as the path to graduation is considerably more demanding and the 5-year military service commitment is daunting to those athletes who believe they have a shot to play at the next level after graduation. Only superstars have a remote shot to get out of the commitment (David Robinson, Napoleon McCallum, and most recently the Reynolds kid come to mind). As to the Ivies, they make the choice to not offer athletic scholarships and are technically no different than the non-scholarship FCS Pioneer League (Stetson, Butler, Campbell, Dayton, Davidson, Jax, San Diego, Drake, Marist, Morehead St., Valpo) except that Pioneer League teams are eligible for NCAA Post-Season play (even though most are non-competitive as FCS teams). Yes, even though Harvard has 120 slots and a $37 Billion endowment, they do not play for an FCS Championship...nor does any other Ivy! Harvard's season ends every year with their GAME against Yale. As a matter of fact, if an upper middle class stud athlete chooses to go to an Ivy over Richmond, where he would receive a full athletic scholarship, that kid's parents would have to fork over the appropriate portion of the Ivy League school's $63,000 annual tuition, room and board in order to make that choice. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no scholarship for the kid who chooses Ivy...just the financial aid award that documents like the FAFSA and CSS say that his family deserves (as Ivies will meet the family's full demonstrated financial need). Richmond says it does this, though that it is a subject worthy of debate. Ivies have the endowments, tradition, educational product, and end game job results that make their schools attractive to a great many high-end student-athletes who don't care about playing for a National Championship. That, in my estimation, is how it is "fair."
 
To be clear - - - the aid given out at the Ivies is absolutely formulaic. There is no discretion. An admitted athlete's aid is determined in the exact same way as any other students. Period. Where there is discretion and "aid" is in the admissions decision itself. In this area it is largely true that if they NEED a quarterback that quarterback will get in. Once in, he gets whatever aid the formula says. So, if the coach knows he'll need a full ride (as determined under the appropriate formulas etc.), he can promise a full ride if the kid comes. In that sense, it becomes true that if they NEED a quarterback AND THAT QB NEEDS A SCHOLARSHIP, he gets a scholarship.

The slots that teams have in the admissions process vary in number and in academic "quality" needed by sport, but for football, there is wider discretion than one might imagine for folks who don't come all that close to the normal admissions profile.
 
Here is how it is "fair." The Service Academies offer a very difficult path to the professional ranks as the path to graduation is considerably more demanding and the 5-year military service commitment is daunting to those athletes who believe they have a shot to play at the next level after graduation. Only superstars have a remote shot to get out of the commitment (David Robinson, Napoleon McCallum, and most recently the Reynolds kid come to mind). As to the Ivies, they make the choice to not offer athletic scholarships and are technically no different than the non-scholarship FCS Pioneer League (Stetson, Butler, Campbell, Dayton, Davidson, Jax, San Diego, Drake, Marist, Morehead St., Valpo) except that Pioneer League teams are eligible for NCAA Post-Season play (even though most are non-competitive as FCS teams). Yes, even though Harvard has 120 slots and a $37 Billion endowment, they do not play for an FCS Championship...nor does any other Ivy! Harvard's season ends every year with their GAME against Yale. As a matter of fact, if an upper middle class stud athlete chooses to go to an Ivy over Richmond, where he would receive a full athletic scholarship, that kid's parents would have to fork over the appropriate portion of the Ivy League school's $63,000 annual tuition, room and board in order to make that choice. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, there is no scholarship for the kid who chooses Ivy...just the financial aid award that documents like the FAFSA and CSS say that his family deserves (as Ivies will meet the family's full demonstrated financial need). Richmond says it does this, though that it is a subject worthy of debate. Ivies have the endowments, tradition, educational product, and end game job results that make their schools attractive to a great many high-end student-athletes who don't care about playing for a National Championship. That, in my estimation, is how it is "fair."

Thank you. I am still confused, but at a much higher level.
Seriously though, thank you for the explanation.
 
i, you are sounding more like your girl hillary every day, confused, cannot recall. not sure if you are passing out and falling like her but sounding like her will do.
 
i, you are sounding more like your girl hillary every day, confused, cannot recall. not sure if you are passing out and falling like her but sounding like her will do.

I am not a Hillary fan, but it has nothing to do with her recent illness.
Definitely not ashamed to admit my confusion despite others' best efforts to explain.
Sometimes I wish that I understood life as dichotomously as you...and then I wake up.
 
you cannot fool me with your denial of hillary. want to go with you into the booth in nov and i know you are pulling for her, she believes just like you do. what do you mean "recent" illness, recall, glad i can, she used the same words under oath in a number of investigations in which she played a big part, whitewater, the travel office debacle. she has huge mental problems or she is just a huge liar, think we all know which it is, maybe both.
 
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Is there a limit to either the FCS or FBS rosters as long as you don't go over the scholarship limit? Could an FBS team have 85 scholarship players and 200 walk-ons?
 
Yes they could have that roster, but there are limits I believe on numbers that can dress/play on game day.
 
I think an FBS team with 85 scholies and 200 walkons would be a huge headache for Title IX compliance. Which is why the roster at the FBS school where I work is capped at 105 total, why baseball is capped at 35 total, etc.

Of course, no one would have any problem whatsover with a women's crew team having 20 scholarship and 150 walk-on rowers, or a gymnastics team have 22 members, as ours does.
 
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