Player Development

[Spider2020]

Mooney (and many others on this board) always say that older college basketball teams are better. If players continuously develop and improve, this should be true. For our team, can we really say that this coaching staff improves its players? Some examples from our older players:

Gilyard: offensive numbers have been steadily getting worse (aside from assists) since 2019. His defense (steals) have remained fairly constant.
Sherod: likely due to his ACL injuries, but he has not been the same this year.
Burton: has steadily improved and gotten better every year.
Cayo: improved greatly his first couple of years, but clearly is not playing as well this year as he had the past few years.
Golden: improved from 3 this year, but otherwise has been pretty stagnant throughout his years at Richmond.

All of these guys have had very good careers at Richmond and are talented players. I just have to question if our coaching staff has truly gotten the most out of our players.

 

[Gospiders06]

Look at the history of players with Mooney. TJ Cline couldn't even sniff the tournament. Add in Terry Allen.

 

[ur2K]

We’ve had players with individually good skills in the last 10 years, we haven’t had many good teams - not NCAA caliber teams.

 

[Eight Legger]

“Richmond Basketball —The Sum Is Less Than The Parts, ©️2005."

 

[UR80sfan]

Look at the history of players with Mooney. TJ Cline couldn't even sniff the tournament. Add in Terry Allen.

The coaching team has done a great job at cultivating players. The 2 players you mentioned are great examples. TJ Cline went from being a good player his sophomore year to A10 POY, which then follow a strong professional career. Terry Allen also improved significantly.

As far as Spider 2020 examples, Grant Golden is playing the best basketball of his career and so is Tyler Burton. Cayo made huge improvement 3 years in a row, but not sure of this year and Finally how Gilly could have gotten better after his junior year when he was considered one of the top point guard in the county? He has had shooting difficulties the last few games, but still adds huge value to the firm.

You can criticize the coaching staff on the team record, but not cultivating players.

 

[SFspidur]

How about cultivating teams?

 

[SpiderAlways]

The coaching team has done a great job at cultivating players. The 2 players you mentioned are great examples. TJ Cline went from being a good player his sophomore year to A10 POY, which then follow a strong professional career. Terry Allen also improved significantly.

As far as Spider 2020 examples, Grant Golden is playing the best basketball of his career and so is Tyler Burton. Cayo made huge improvement 3 years in a row, but not sure of this year and Finally how Gilly could have gotten better after his junior year when he was considered one of the top point guard in the county? He has had shooting difficulties the last few games, but still adds huge value to the firm.

You can criticize the coaching staff on the team record, but not cultivating players.

All this great player development. 0 NCAA’s go figure

 

[SpiderK]

I have watched Mooney drain the life out of so many of our players. He literally destroyed any defensive or rebounding skills these kids were taught in their previous 10 years of organized basketball. I haven’t seen a UR kid box out in 17 years. Free throw shooting is abysmal. The fundamentals are just not taught to these kids. Ever notice no other team in the country runs the predictable Princeton offense. We only get about two baskets a game from back door cuts, but turn the ball over 4 or 5 times trying to do it.

 

[MrTbone]

Clearly there are cases where the staff have developed players. It does feel like folks are pointing to a handful or two of cases which seems bad on a per capita basis given how many guys have cycled through in 17 years.

But as noted, it’s sort of meaningless if our goal is to reach the ncaa tournament and we can’t achieve that.

 

[Spider2020]

The coaching team has done a great job at cultivating players. The 2 players you mentioned are great examples. TJ Cline went from being a good player his sophomore year to A10 POY, which then follow a strong professional career. Terry Allen also improved significantly.

As far as Spider 2020 examples, Grant Golden is playing the best basketball of his career and so is Tyler Burton. Cayo made huge improvement 3 years in a row, but not sure of this year and Finally how Gilly could have gotten better after his junior year when he was considered one of the top point guard in the county? He has had shooting difficulties the last few games, but still adds huge value to the firm.

You can criticize the coaching staff on the team record, but not cultivating players.

TJ became the A10 player of the year after he spent his summer doing workouts with his mom. Our coaches did not get that A10 player of the year improvement out of him - another coach did. Golden is playing very well, but he has played well since being at Richmond - not sure his game has seen much development other than adding a 3 point shot. Gilyards shooting numbers across the board have consistently gotten worse since his sophomore year. Cayo improved his first 2 years but has seriously regressed this year on the offensive end.

As a side note, I’m not sure if we should be complimenting the coaching staff for their work with Cayo when he’s been a starter here for 4 years and has never developed a jump shot. He’s a good slasher but imagine if he could make a 15 foot jump shot. His FT form was an area I gave the coaches credit for, but this year it does not look at all the same as it had the previous 2 years.

Burton has consistently improved, but we hear all the time that he’s always in the gym getting shots up before and after practice. How much credit does the coaching staff deserve for his development, and how much of it is just Burton working his butt off? I don’t have an answer for that, but the point is, our players often stagnate after their first or second year.

 

[SpiderAlways]

Blah blah blah, 0 NCAA’S

 

[8legs1dream]

so we cultivate great players for years on end but it just doesn't culminate in any meaningful accomplishments whatsoever as a team, is that the Mooneyphile narrative going into 2022?

That's like saying a chef works so hard to find the most flavorful and freshest ingredients while taking the time to combine them with the utmost care and attention to detail yet somehow the whole thing tastes like garbage.

 

[SpiderGuy]

Do we need a new thread for coach development?

 

[UR80sfan]

How about cultivating teams?

That is a different question than the subject of the tread. The thread is about developing players and Mooney has done a great job of preparing his players for a future professional career, which is one of the reason they are so loyal to him. A very high percent of starters at U of R that want to play professionally are able to get jobs as professional players.

 

[nathanw19]

That is a different question than the subject of the tread. The thread is about developing players and Mooney has done a great job of preparing his players for a future professional career, which is one of the reason they are so loyal to him. A very high percent of starters at U of R that want to play professionally are able to get jobs as professional players.

How many Mooney players have played professionally? A non scientific look (aka Wikipedia look up of who has their own Wikipedia page that says they’ve played professionally):

David Gonzalvez
Kevin Anderson
Justin Harper (NBA)
Darrius Garret
Josh Duinker
Kendall Anthony
Terry Allen
ShawnDre Jones
TJ Cline
Blake Francis

Unless I’m missing people (please correct me if I am), that’s 10 players over 17 years. I would say that is not a very high percentage of players playing professionally in the Mooney era.

 

[8legs1dream]

How many Mooney players have played professionally? A non scientific look (aka Wikipedia look up of who has their own Wikipedia page that says they’ve played professionally):

David Gonzalvez
Kevin Anderson
Justin Harper (NBA)
Darrius Garret
Josh Duinker
Kendall Anthony
Terry Allen
ShawnDre Jones
TJ Cline
Blake Francis

Unless I’m missing people (please correct me if I am), that’s 10 players over 17 years. I would say that is not a very high percentage of players playing professionally in the Mooney era.

In fact, it is laughably small. Pick a random D1 team, ANY D1 team I bet you will have found at least that many if not more guys that played pro ball.

 

[UR80sfan]

In fact, it is laughably small. Pick a random D1 team, ANY D1 team I bet you will have found at least that many if not more guys that played pro ball.

In the basketball program it list these players (not including NBA) that went pro in the history of our program. I not sure which played under Mooney, but it is a lot more than what you guys listed.

OTHER PRO SPIDERS Name Last Team Last Year

Blake Francis Raptors 905 (G League) pres

Jordan Madrid-Andrews NSH Jakarta (Indonesia) 2021

Khwan Fore Koop Spor (Cyprus) 2021

T.J. Cline Maccabi Tel-Aviv (Israel) 2021

Solly Stansbury Boulogne-Levallois (France) pres

Marshall Wood McKinnon (Australia) 2019

ShawnDre’ Jones Motor City Cruise (G League) pres

Terry Allen Medi Bayreuth (Germany) pres

Kendall Anthony Hapoel Nofar (Israel) 2021

Cedrick Lindsay P. Zvaigdes (Lithuania) 2014

Darien Brothers Lapua (Finland) 2 2016

Josh Duinker Kumamoto Volters (Japan) 2019

Darrius Garrett Iraklis (Greece) 2020

Kevin Anderson Czarni Slupsk (Poland) 2017

Dan Geriot Verviers (Belgium) 2011

Justin Harper Kyoto Hannaryz (Japan) pres

Kevin Smith Alba (Hungary) 2013

David Gonzalvez Pyrinto Tampere (Finland) pres

Jarhon Giddings Rochester (PBL) 2013

Gaston Moliva B. Bystrica (Slovakia) 2016,

Oumar Sylla Bernau (Germany) 2016

Jermaine Bucknor Gladiators Trier (Germany) 2021

Kevin Steenberge Okinawa GK (Japan) 2010

Tony Dobbins Scafati (Italy) 2017

Jonathan Collins Rotterdam (Holland) 2007

Tim Faulconer Warrnambool (Australia) 2004

Scott Ungerer Duesseldorf (Germany) 2006

Kinte Smith Bergen op Zoom (Holland) 2006

Greg Stevenson Samsung Thunder (S. Korea) 2021

Jarod Stevenson Ulsan Mobis (S. Korea) 2021

Eric Poole Metropolitan All-Stars (APBL) 2013,

Rick Edwards Dornbirn (Austria) 1999

Kass Weaver Achilleas Agrou (Cyprus) 1999

Michael Hodges Pelita Jaya (Indonesia) 1999

Gerald Jarmon Israel 1998

Chris Fleming QSTV (Germany) 2000

Jim Springer Germany 2000

Kenny Wood Sant Cugat (Spain) 1997

Curtis Blair Australia 1997

Jim Shields Giessen 46ers (Germany) 1999

Ken Atkinson Nantes (France) 2004

Mike Winiecki Portugal 1991

Jeff Pehl Israel 1983

Jeff Butler France 1977

 

[Eight Legger]

I think Jeff Pehl was one of Mooney's first recruits...

 

[nathanw19]

In the basketball program it list these players (not including NBA) that went pro in the history of our program. I not sure which played under Mooney, but it is a lot more than what you guys listed.

OTHER PRO SPIDERS Name Last Team Last Year

Blake Francis Raptors 905 (G League) pres

Jordan Madrid-Andrews NSH Jakarta (Indonesia) 2021

Khwan Fore Koop Spor (Cyprus) 2021

T.J. Cline Maccabi Tel-Aviv (Israel) 2021

Solly Stansbury Boulogne-Levallois (France) pres

Marshall Wood McKinnon (Australia) 2019

ShawnDre’ Jones Motor City Cruise (G League) pres

Terry Allen Medi Bayreuth (Germany) pres

Kendall Anthony Hapoel Nofar (Israel) 2021

Cedrick Lindsay P. Zvaigdes (Lithuania) 2014

Darien Brothers Lapua (Finland) 2 2016

Josh Duinker Kumamoto Volters (Japan) 2019

Darrius Garrett Iraklis (Greece) 2020

Kevin Anderson Czarni Slupsk (Poland) 2017

Dan Geriot Verviers (Belgium) 2011

Justin Harper Kyoto Hannaryz (Japan) pres

Kevin Smith Alba (Hungary) 2013

David Gonzalvez Pyrinto Tampere (Finland) pres

Jarhon Giddings Rochester (PBL) 2013

Gaston Moliva B. Bystrica (Slovakia) 2016,

Oumar Sylla Bernau (Germany) 2016

Jermaine Bucknor Gladiators Trier (Germany) 2021

Kevin Steenberge Okinawa GK (Japan) 2010

Tony Dobbins Scafati (Italy) 2017

Jonathan Collins Rotterdam (Holland) 2007

Tim Faulconer Warrnambool (Australia) 2004

Scott Ungerer Duesseldorf (Germany) 2006

Kinte Smith Bergen op Zoom (Holland) 2006

Greg Stevenson Samsung Thunder (S. Korea) 2021

Jarod Stevenson Ulsan Mobis (S. Korea) 2021

Eric Poole Metropolitan All-Stars (APBL) 2013,

Rick Edwards Dornbirn (Austria) 1999

Kass Weaver Achilleas Agrou (Cyprus) 1999

Michael Hodges Pelita Jaya (Indonesia) 1999

Gerald Jarmon Israel 1998

Chris Fleming QSTV (Germany) 2000

Jim Springer Germany 2000

Kenny Wood Sant Cugat (Spain) 1997

Curtis Blair Australia 1997

Jim Shields Giessen 46ers (Germany) 1999

Ken Atkinson Nantes (France) 2004

Mike Winiecki Portugal 1991

Jeff Pehl Israel 1983

Jeff Butler France 1977

Thanks for this!

I would start with Jarhon on your list (not recruited by Mooney, but had Mooney as a coach for most of his career, from sophomore season on). That would be 19 players who played professionally over Mooney’s 17 years. I would argue that still isn’t great percentage wise.

 

[SFspidur]

Transfers out like ANO and Fore aren’t on the list.

Even Luke Moyer…anybody remember him? Walked on at UR for a year, transferred to Campbell with McGeehan for a couple of years, then finished in NAIA. Currently playing in the Georgian Superleague.

 

[urmite]

I think Jeff Pehl was one of Mooney's first recruits...

If Mooney can turn Jordan Madrid Andrews into a pro…

 

[wr70beh]

Solly was here for a cup of coffee. He wasn't here long enough to be Mooneyfied.

 

[I-M-UR]

If Mooneysa good player development guy then it even more of a-shame none of these players saw the tournament. What a waste

 

[UR80sfan]

Thanks for this!

I would start with Jarhon on your list (not recruited by Mooney, but had Mooney as a coach for most of his career, from sophomore season on). That would be 19 players who played professionally over Mooney’s 17 years. I would argue that still isn’t great percentage wise.

It is a lot more than all previous coached combined and does not include another 5 to 8 from the current team that might go pro.

 

[urmite]

In the basketball program it list these players (not including NBA) that went pro in the history of our program. I not sure which played under Mooney, but it is a lot more than what you guys listed.

OTHER PRO SPIDERS Name Last Team Last Year

Blake Francis Raptors 905 (G League) pres

Jordan Madrid-Andrews NSH Jakarta (Indonesia) 2021

Khwan Fore Koop Spor (Cyprus) 2021

T.J. Cline Maccabi Tel-Aviv (Israel) 2021

Solly Stansbury Boulogne-Levallois (France) pres

Marshall Wood McKinnon (Australia) 2019

ShawnDre’ Jones Motor City Cruise (G League) pres

Terry Allen Medi Bayreuth (Germany) pres

Kendall Anthony Hapoel Nofar (Israel) 2021

Cedrick Lindsay P. Zvaigdes (Lithuania) 2014

Darien Brothers Lapua (Finland) 2 2016

Josh Duinker Kumamoto Volters (Japan) 2019

Darrius Garrett Iraklis (Greece) 2020

Kevin Anderson Czarni Slupsk (Poland) 2017

Dan Geriot Verviers (Belgium) 2011

Justin Harper Kyoto Hannaryz (Japan) pres

Kevin Smith Alba (Hungary) 2013

David Gonzalvez Pyrinto Tampere (Finland) pres

Jarhon Giddings Rochester (PBL) 2013

Gaston Moliva B. Bystrica (Slovakia) 2016,

Oumar Sylla Bernau (Germany) 2016

Jermaine Bucknor Gladiators Trier (Germany) 2021

Kevin Steenberge Okinawa GK (Japan) 2010

Tony Dobbins Scafati (Italy) 2017

Jonathan Collins Rotterdam (Holland) 2007

Tim Faulconer Warrnambool (Australia) 2004

Scott Ungerer Duesseldorf (Germany) 2006

Kinte Smith Bergen op Zoom (Holland) 2006

Greg Stevenson Samsung Thunder (S. Korea) 2021

Jarod Stevenson Ulsan Mobis (S. Korea) 2021

Eric Poole Metropolitan All-Stars (APBL) 2013,

Rick Edwards Dornbirn (Austria) 1999

Kass Weaver Achilleas Agrou (Cyprus) 1999

Michael Hodges Pelita Jaya (Indonesia) 1999

Gerald Jarmon Israel 1998

Chris Fleming QSTV (Germany) 2000

Jim Springer Germany 2000

Kenny Wood Sant Cugat (Spain) 1997

Curtis Blair Australia 1997

Jim Shields Giessen 46ers (Germany) 1999

Ken Atkinson Nantes (France) 2004

Mike Winiecki Portugal 1991

Jeff Pehl Israel 1983

Jeff Butler France 1977

Your name is 80s fan, so it is a little surprising you don’t know if the below are Mooney’s players.

Chris Fleming QSTV (Germany) 2000

Jim Springer Germany 2000

Kenny Wood Sant Cugat (Spain) 1997

Curtis Blair Australia 1997

Jim Shields Giessen 46ers (Germany) 1999

Ken Atkinson Nantes (France) 2004

Mike Winiecki Portugal 1991

 

[urmite]

Thanks for this!

I would start with Jarhon on your list (not recruited by Mooney, but had Mooney as a coach for most of his career, from sophomore season on). That would be 19 players who played professionally over Mooney’s 17 years. I would argue that still isn’t great percentage wise.

Do you count Sylla, Bucknor, or Steenburge? Didn’t all play some under Mooney?
And not sure what an average percentage is for teams #50 To #150…

 

[8legs1dream]

Blake Francis Raptors 905 (G League) pres
Khwan Fore Koop Spor (Cyprus) 2021
T.J. Cline Maccabi Tel-Aviv (Israel) 2021
ShawnDre’ Jones Motor City Cruise (G League) pres
Terry Allen Medi Bayreuth (Germany) pres
Kendall Anthony Hapoel Nofar (Israel) 2021
Cedrick Lindsay P. Zvaigdes (Lithuania) 2014
Darien Brothers Lapua (Finland) 2 2016
Josh Duinker Kumamoto Volters (Japan) 2019
Darrius Garrett Iraklis (Greece) 2020
Kevin Anderson Czarni Slupsk (Poland) 2017
Dan Geriot Verviers (Belgium) 2011
Justin Harper Kyoto Hannaryz (Japan) pres
Kevin Smith Alba (Hungary) 2013
David Gonzalvez Pyrinto Tampere (Finland) pres
Jarhon Giddings Rochester (PBL) 2013
Gaston Moliva B. Bystrica (Slovakia) 2016,
Oumar Sylla Bernau (Germany) 2016
1 Moon season == Solly Stansbury Boulogne-Levallois (France) pres
2 Moon Seasons == Marshall Wood McKinnon (Australia) 2019
1 Moon season == Jordan Madrid-Andrews NSH Jakarta (Indonesia) 2021
1 Moon season == Jermaine Bucknor Gladiators Trier (Germany) 2021
1 Moon season == Kevin Steenberge Okinawa GK (Japan) 2010
1 Moon season == Solly Stansbury Boulogne-Levallois (France) pres
2 Moon Seasons == Marshall Wood McKinnon (Australia) 2019
Tony Dobbins Scafati (Italy) 2017
Jonathan Collins Rotterdam (Holland) 2007
Tim Faulconer Warrnambool (Australia) 2004
Scott Ungerer Duesseldorf (Germany) 2006
Kinte Smith Bergen op Zoom (Holland) 2006
Greg Stevenson Samsung Thunder (S. Korea) 2021
Jarod Stevenson Ulsan Mobis (S. Korea) 2021
Eric Poole Metropolitan All-Stars (APBL) 2013,
Rick Edwards Dornbirn (Austria) 1999
Kass Weaver Achilleas Agrou (Cyprus) 1999
Michael Hodges Pelita Jaya (Indonesia) 1999
Gerald Jarmon Israel 1998
Chris Fleming QSTV (Germany) 2000
Jim Springer Germany 2000
Kenny Wood Sant Cugat (Spain) 1997
Curtis Blair Australia 1997
Jim Shields Giessen 46ers (Germany) 1999
Ken Atkinson Nantes (France) 2004
Mike Winiecki Portugal 1991
Jeff Pehl Israel 1983
Jeff Butler France 1977

Crossed out names that never played for MoonPie, seven played for him only 1-2 seasons, 18 remaining which means over 17 seasons he averages 1.059 players reaching any form of "professional ball"

Raise a banner.

 

[MrTbone]

I didn’t realize one of our stated program goals was to send our guys to play professionally overseas after not making the tournament.

 

[8legs1dream]

I didn’t realize one of our stated program goals was to send our guys to play professionally overseas after not making the tournament.

Well we got one part of it down at least

 

[whampas]

It is a lot more than all previous coached combined and does not include another 5 to 8 from the current team that might go pro.

How prevalent were overseas basketball leagues 20 years ago? Honest question.

 

[SpiderAlways]

It is a lot more than all previous coached combined and does not include another 5 to 8 from the current team that might go pro.

😎 where are the banners?

 

[Not-A-Homer]

It is a lot more than all previous coached combined and does not include another 5 to 8 from the current team that might go pro.

Many of those on your list played at Richmond before Mooney arrived. Quite a few of the other players on your list saw little to no playing time in college with Mooney as their coach. Still others were average at best during their UR career:

Jordan Madrid-Andrews was a transfer and rarely played. Solly Stansbury played limited minutes, lost his starting job and left. Josh Duinker played minor minutes while Mooney was developing him. Darrius Garrett played a minor (though important) role under Mooney in limited minutes. Marshall Wood was a transfer to Mooney, and he wasn't anything near a star while at UR. Others named a few more.

Seems that your post is more about quite a few players that Mooney thought weren't good enough to get significant minutes while they played for him, yet they turned out to be good enough to be pro players under a different coach and system. That is MUCH more of an indictment of Mooney's "player development" ability than a compliment.

 

[spider23]

Yep, as someone noted earlier, if you compare us to most any other mid major it would not be anything to brag on. It starts with recruiting, Mooney does not win many battles for p6 type athletes (like Burton), which are the types of guys you see in the league.

Heck, Javonte Green from Radford has been on an NBA roster consistently the last three years, damn near identical size/athlete/skill set as Kevin Smith, but Mike Jones developed him into an NBA player. The Mooney truthers are unbelievable in their attempts to twist the narrative. Wow.


Stay positive.

Test Negative.

Happy new year.

Every day is a gift!!!

 

[SpiderRick]

I can only imagine the level of basketball being played in Indonesia.

 

[nathanw19]

It is a lot more than all previous coached combined and does not include another 5 to 8 from the current team that might go pro.

So I found a site that gives every player playing professionally currently for every school.

Richmond Players Currently Playing Professionally - RealGM

Richmond basketball scores, news, schedule, players, stats, photos, rumors, depth charts on RealGM.com

basketball.realgm.com

Heres the list of A10 teams and how many former players are currently playing professional basketball:

Dayton - 21
URI - 18
Fordham - 17
George Mason - 17
Saint Louis - 15
VCU - 14
George Washington - 13
UMass - 13
St. Bonnie - 13
Duquesne - 11
Davidson - 9
Richmond - 7
St. Joe’s - 7
La Salle - 3

If players are choosing to come play for Mooney because they think he’s going to help them play professionally, the numbers just don’t back that up. Against his conference peers (didn’t even bother looking at power 5 conferences), he’s tied for second worst.

(also, I couldn’t believe how high Fordham is on this list…)

 

[Eight Legger]

As I mentioned in another thread, the current ninth-year coach at Mooney's alma mater, Princeton, has placed 10 former players in the pros already.

 

[SpiderK]

Does it qualify as “professional” if it cost you more to travel to the club league than you are getting paid? Just wondering about some of these so called professional joke teams.

 

[SpiderK]

Player development? I give you Sal and Grace for current examples of zero improvement.

 

[SpiderRick]

K, I don't understand why you are so down on Grace. He's grown from nothing when he got here, to a valuable sub coming off the bench. Your bar is too high. He's had to battle against Mooneyism for 4 years now.

 

[urmite]

K, I don't understand why you are so down on Grace. He's grown from nothing when he got here, to a valuable sub coming off the bench. Your bar is too high. He's had to battle against Mooneyism for 4 years now.

I suspect that while I deflect stressful situations with humor (at least to me it’s humor), I think K deflects stressful situations with mocking. “Noodle arm”