Mooney pushing to expand NCAA tournament

SFspidur

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Big debate going on right now with the NCAA saying most sports should have ~25% of their teams advance to the NCAA tournament. Mooney's clearly in the pro-expansion camp.


 

spiderman

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conferences have gotten too big. we're the A10 ... with 15 teams. the ACC has 15. the Big 10 has 14 (while the Big 12 has 10?)
we need to add a few conferences (plus realign again) and give those conferences auto bids. then match the total auto bids with additional at-larges.
 

GKiller

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conferences have gotten too big. we're the A10 ... with 15 teams. the ACC has 15. the Big 10 has 14 (while the Big 12 has 10?)
we need to add a few conferences (plus realign again) and give those conferences auto bids. then match the total auto bids with additional at-larges.

True if u r going to have the convo about opportunity u really need to talk about super conferences and sizes, and also as importantly scheduling equity. back in 85' power teams actually played ooc road games. certainly way more of them. There should be ncaa mandated rules but nobody wants to talk about that, for whatever reason....$. And if u r going to make that pro comparison Moon man, well u can't avoid that what the Pros have is scheduling equity. So yeah be like the pros, and we'll have fair scheduling. Then potentially it's a different convo and/or less advocates for expansion.

I think there r many "right-minded" fans & other voices against more march madness. We've heard them. Little propagandish there Moon with that take. Like many things there are pros and cons. Part of march madness is the conf tourneys leading up to selection sunday imo, which could be less important.

That all said, I'm not against expansion. mainly b/c I don't see stuff changing with the issues noted above. yes more opportunity is good, and i want to be in more NCAAs. The key is if bids r primarily going to the non power conf schools. The p6 are already represented by a high % per conference. If 3 of 4 extra bids go to mid majors or lower then ok. I fear you would just see more .500 or slightly above p6 teams. idk. Our boy Ken Pom seems to think 80 is the ideal #, and the deeper you go into the at large pool the more non P6 teams there are. Whether that equals selection is another matter. Put in a rule u have to finish .500 or better (including the conf tourney) and that is something I could really get behind.
 

Wood Hall

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If you could guarantee an automatic NCAA berth in hoops, volleyball, soccer, baseball and softball to a new conference, I think you'd see some teams break away from their current ones. The main problem is the existing TV contracts make it economically unfeasible.

For example, take outliers DePaul, Marquette, Creighton, Xavier and Butler from the Big East and take outliers Loyola Chicago, SLU and Dayton from the A-10 and maybe add Detroit Mercy to form a new conference. None have FBS football, most are Catholic schools, they'd have the region's big media markets covered and they are fairly equal in terms of enrollment and athletic budgets.

The new "Great Midwest" would make more sense geographically and save a ton of travel costs across the board throughout every school's entire department. So of course it will never happen.
 

Eight Legger

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On that note, did anyone see JOC's article about UR hosting Stanford in field hockey? Stanford is like one of three schools in California that plays fields hockey, and as a result it had to find a far-flung conference to join: the America East. So it is spending God knows how much money flying to New Hampshire and Vermont and Rhode Island every year. Just absolute insanity.
 

SFspidur

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Yeah, Stanford can afford it, though maybe Cal and certainly Davis have to search a little harder in the couch cushions.

What's also interesting is it's not a reciprocal arrangement...Stanford, Cal, and Davis all play at the other AE schools every year, and the other AE members never have to travel to California. It's all part of the price the CA schools have to pay to be in a conference.

The CA schools do make "only" three trips east for their AE matchups. They make long weekends of it and play two games on each trip.
 

8legs1dream

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On that note, did anyone see JOC's article about UR hosting Stanford in field hockey? Stanford is like one of three schools in California that plays fields hockey, and as a result it had to find a far-flung conference to join: the America East. So it is spending God knows how much money flying to New Hampshire and Vermont and Rhode Island every year. Just absolute insanity.

funny you bring this up, I was on the same flight into Richmond last night as the Stanford field hockey team.
 
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RichmondNative

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Big debate going on right now with the NCAA saying most sports should have ~25% of their teams advance to the NCAA tournament. Mooney's clearly in the pro-expansion camp.
That is a crazy percentage for Men’s basketball. There are 358 teams in or transitioning to D1. 25% would be 90 schools. I think expanding the men’s basketball tournament beyond what it is today is diluting a great thing. I guess the idea is that if you greatly increase it then the mid-majors get more spots. Percentage wise, I don’t think they would. We all know it comes down to money (tv dollars) and the facts are there aren’t as many fans of the smaller schools and that is why the 0.500 teams in P5 conferences get in over the mid majors. I also find it sort of funny that Mooney is being cited as the champion for this effort since UR hasn’t held him accountable for NCAA births. I do agree with him that it is hard for a mid-major team to make the tournament, but doesn’t that fact make it more valuable too?
conferences have gotten too big. we're the A10 ... with 15 teams. the ACC has 15. the Big 10 has 14 (while the Big 12 has 10?)
we need to add a few conferences (plus realign again) and give those conferences auto bids. then match the total auto bids with additional at-larges.
There is no way there are going to be more conferences. Football drives everything and it is forcing more consolidation. What is more likely to happen is that the big schools pull away from the NCAA altogether and form their own league. Then the mid-majors end up with March Madness all to themselves.
 

97spiderfan

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Big debate going on right now with the NCAA saying most sports should have ~25% of their teams advance to the NCAA tournament. Mooney's clearly in the pro-expansion camp.


I mean it's more job security/increase salary for Mooney if they expand it, so of course he is gonna advocate for it.
 

SpiderTrap

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Keep it the way it is. The play-in games already feel like they are not part of the tourney - adding another round I think would just make it worse.

If they want to expand, they should really do something with the NIT. You have 68 teams in the NCAA, and then 32 in the NIT - which means you have 100 teams in a meaningful post-season tourney. NIT games are on ESPN, final four is in MSG, and you get auto bid for winning your conference regular season. But maybe they should add something for the winner of the NIT to make it more intriguing. Maybe winner of NIT automatically plays winner of NCAA tourney to open season next year? Now with NIL in play - maybe their is purse attached to the winner that goes to the players in some sort of NIL deal? Winning team gets 100K, split among players as part of NIL deal.

The NIT will never be the NCAA, but I think you have two meaningful tourney's that get you to the 100 teams in post-season play. The other tourney's - CBI and whatever can disappear. They are clear money grabs. But the NIT has history and the games are on ESPN and you get the MSG - I think you just need to add something to it to bring a little excitement to it. Coaches will still be ranked on NCAA appearances, no doubt. But watering it down to 90-100 teams, do you really feel like you made it if you get knocked out in the first round as team 88? No.

Keep it the way it is - and maybe do something to enhance the NIT and I think its fine.
 
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Keep it the way it is. The play-in games already feel like they are not part of the tourney - adding another round I think would just make it worse.

If they want to expand, they should really do something with the NIT. You have 68 teams in the NCAA, and then 32 in the NIT - which means you have 100 teams in a meaningful post-season tourney. NIT games are on ESPN, final four is in MSG, and you get auto bid for winning your conference regular season. But maybe they should add something for the winner of the NIT to make it more intriguing. Maybe winner of NIT automatically plays winner of NCAA tourney to open season next year? Now with NIL in play - maybe their is purse attached to the winner that goes to the players in some sort of NIL deal? Winning team gets 100K, split among players as part of NIL deal.

The NIT will never be the NCAA, but I think you have two meaningful tourney's that get you to the 100 teams in post-season play. The other tourney's - CBI and whatever can disappear. They are clear money grabs. But the NIT has history and the games are on ESPN and you get the MSG - I think you just need to add something to it to bring a little excitement to it. Coaches will still be ranked on NCAA appearances, no doubt. But watering it down to 90-100 teams, do you really feel like you made it if you get knocked out in the first round as team 88? No.

Keep it the way it is - and maybe do something to enhance the NIT and I think its fine.
"he play-in games already feel like they are not part of the tourney - adding another round I think would just make it worse."

Do you sit up a night and think about ridiculous things to type? ask UCLA and VCU want they think about the play in game (now I have to go take a shower for semi-complimenting VCU)
 

SpiderTrap

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I never said the first four games or play in games of two 16-16 seeds playing each other to face off against the 1 seed never turn out to a team making a run. But aside from the 16 seed games - the play in games are really just a way for power conferences to squeeze more teams in. I am glad VCU made that run and I am sure the NCAA is as well - it validated their inclusion. But the team that loses in that game - did you really make the NCAA tourney? Do you hang a banner that says "First four" instead of final four? It just doesn't feel like the tourney. And really all you need to know that it doesn't matter that much - when filling out a bracket for a bracket challenge, hardly any make you pick those games. They make you pick the second round (default first round) games.

Making it 90 or more teams - no thanks. That is too many and waters it down. There are not 90 teams out there capable of winning it all. Half of those teams - 40-50 of them have no legitimate shot of winning the entire tourney. Keep it where its at.
 

urmite

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I never said the first four games or play in games of two 16-16 seeds playing each other to face off against the 1 seed never turn out to a team making a run. But aside from the 16 seed games - the play in games are really just a way for power conferences to squeeze more teams in. I am glad VCU made that run and I am sure the NCAA is as well - it validated their inclusion. But the team that loses in that game - did you really make the NCAA tourney? Do you hang a banner that says "First four" instead of final four? It just doesn't feel like the tourney. And really all you need to know that it doesn't matter that much - when filling out a bracket for a bracket challenge, hardly any make you pick those games. They make you pick the second round (default first round) games.

Making it 90 or more teams - no thanks. That is too many and waters it down. There are not 90 teams out there capable of winning it all. Half of those teams - 40-50 of them have no legitimate shot of winning the entire tourney. Keep it where its at.
The crazy 88.
40 byes, 48 first round.
Dont you want to see the 11 seed vs the 22 seed?
 
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Section9.RowD

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"he play-in games already feel like they are not part of the tourney - adding another round I think would just make it worse."

Do you sit up a night and think about ridiculous things to type? ask UCLA and VCU want they think about the play in game (now I have to go take a shower for semi-complimenting VCU)
I actually agree with Lurker on this one ... can't seem a harm in more teams and more games ...
 

SpiderTrap

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I actually agree with Lurker on this one ... can't seem a harm in more teams and more games ...
The harm will be the outrage when more and more power conference teams get in with sub-500 league records and just barely above .500 overall records. Careful what you wish for - the extra bids are not going to the 5th place A10 team - they are going to the 10th place Big Ten team.

I don't like it - feels too much like "Everyone gets a trophy" to me and I hate that.
 

KE Spider

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The money will drive expansion. There is a lot to be had.

Like where we are now, but expect expansion is inevitable.
 

SpiderTrap

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If the NCAA tourney expands - does the NIT expand as well? Make that a 64 team tourney. Now you got close to half playing post-season.

Money talks and this is likely inevitable. The NCAA calls itself a non-profit. But there is nothing non-profit about an over 8 billion dollar deal to broadcast the tourney for the next 10 years.

Not sure it helps coaches much. They think it will, but reality will set in. If your a team that makes it, but loses in the first round on a consistent basis - you will get fired. And if you don't make it - the ax might come even quicker cause if you can't make it with near 90-100 teams, then fans and administration will get upset even faster.
 

urmite

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If the NCAA tourney expands - does the NIT expand as well? Make that a 64 team tourney. Now you got close to half playing post-season.

Money talks and this is likely inevitable. The NCAA calls itself a non-profit. But there is nothing non-profit about an over 8 billion dollar deal to broadcast the tourney for the next 10 years.

Not sure it helps coaches much. They think it will, but reality will set in. If your a team that makes it, but loses in the first round on a consistent basis - you will get fired. And if you don't make it - the ax might come even quicker cause if you can't make it with near 90-100 teams, then fans and administration will get upset even faster.
I wonder if this means the NIT is fading? https://federalnewsnetwork.com/spor...t-leaving-madison-square-garden-next-2-years/

and that prompted the expansion talk?
 

SpiderTrap

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I have heard this about the NIT - moving from MSG. Not sure what the crowds have been like at MSG, or if they have other events they would like to hold in place of NIT - but I think there is still a place for the NIT. Maybe a move to Vegas or if they could pick a new college site every 2 years. So Hinkle Fieldhouse gets it for 2 years. Then maybe it moves Allen Fieldhouse, or The Palestra or PIT in New Mexico - think of place with college basketball history that could draw a decent crowd even if hometown team is not playing.

But I do think if the NCAA expands - the NIT is likely out. With 68 in the NCAA field - your still getting top 100 teams and good teams in the NIT. You expand the NCAA - and the NIT becomes very watered down.

With the NCAA field at 68 - the NIT still has some meaning and history behind it to have a place. Expand to 90-100 teams in NCAA - the NIT is basically absorbed by NCAA and not relevant at all.
 

spiderman

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when the NCAA tournament expanded to 64 team in 1985, there were 282 division 1 teams. including teams transitioning up I think it's 358 now. that's a 27% increase and they've only added 4 bids.

increase it from 2 play-in games to 16 ... 8 on Tuesday and 8 on Wednesday.

that's 80 teams with 32 in play-in games and 48 starting off in the 1st round.

the NIT can stay, but nobody really cares about it whether you're playing to be #69 or #81.
forget MSG. just play that entire tournament at the better seed's house.
 

Wood Hall

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The play-in games don't feel like real NCAA games. To the overwhelming majority of CBB fans, the "real" tournament starts on Thursday and Friday.

The NCAA calls itself a non-profit. But there is nothing non-profit about an over 8 billion dollar deal to broadcast the tourney for the next 10 years.

There is if the money is redistributed to the NCAA's members, all the way down to Division III. Which most of it is.
 

spider23

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the NIT can stay, but nobody really cares about it whether you're playing to be #69 or #81.
forget MSG. just play that entire tournament at the better seed's house.
I like this, from what i have seen MSG is pretty empty for this - I think it is mid week too? I think for a lot of mid majors this would be very exciting to host a final four or final game.

I can remember one of the most raucous games I was at in the RC was NIT game vs Temple.
 
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SpiderTrap

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The play-in games don't feel like real NCAA games. To the overwhelming majority of CBB fans, the "real" tournament starts on Thursday and Friday.

The NCAA calls itself a non-profit. But there is nothing non-profit about an over 8 billion dollar deal to broadcast the tourney for the next 10 years.

There is if the money is redistributed to the NCAA's members, all the way down to Division III. Which most of it is.
And the president of the NCAA makes 3 million a year. And I got a feeling the people directly below him are pulling nice salaries as well. And I can only imagine the amount of legal fees they pay out - as the NCAA is always involved in some sort of case.
 

97spiderfan

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The NIT is a clear second tier tourney, I don't really care what happens to it, because no one cares about the NIT as soon as they are eliminated, it is meaningless.

As a Spider fan, I would be in favor of expanding the tournament. Everyone would get used to the expanded field after the first year or two and it means we probably get to dance more than once in a decade. So count me in, history be damned.
 

Wood Hall

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And the president of the NCAA makes 3 million a year. And I got a feeling the people directly below him are pulling nice salaries as well. And I can only imagine the amount of legal fees they pay out - as the NCAA is always involved in some sort of case.
As well he should. It's a billion-dollar business.

I find it laughable that some think a huge, huge business like the NCAA should be run by some man/woman working for free, or for a salary well below their market value, just because it's a non-profit. It's a little more complicated than running the Ridge Road 7-Eleven.
 
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Eight Legger

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As well he should. It's a billion-dollar business.

I find it laughable that some think a huge, huge business like the NCAA should be run by some man/woman working for free, or for a salary well below their market value, just because it's a non-profit. It's a little more complicated than running the Ridge Road 7-Eleven.
Right? NCAA or any large corporation, business or even government. If you pay the top guy or woman $75,000 a year, your entity is going right in the toilet.
 

spiderman

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Right? NCAA or any large corporation, business or even government. If you pay the top guy or woman $75,000 a year, your entity is going right in the toilet.
nobody would suggest $75k.
I think I could easily find someone sharp for $1M though.
 

RichmondNative

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Future of D1 and NCAA tournament - Eye on College Basketball
This podcast episode is very interesting (albeit long, over an hour) and the hosts have the same opinion as I do that tournament expansion isn’t the right thing to do, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Also interesting to note that they think there won’t be a separation by the P5 to their own organization, but a separation of D1 into 3 divisions. I thought that was what D2 and D3 already were supposed to do. The data they collected was from college coaches, so it seems that more are against Mooney’s POV than for it.
 

gcarter52

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Future of D1 and NCAA tournament - Eye on College Basketball
This podcast episode is very interesting (albeit long, over an hour) and the hosts have the same opinion as I do that tournament expansion isn’t the right thing to do, but that doesn’t mean it won’t happen. Also interesting to note that they think there won’t be a separation by the P5 to their own organization, but a separation of D1 into 3 divisions. I thought that was what D2 and D3 already were supposed to do. The data they collected was from college coaches, so it seems that more are against Mooney’s POV than for it.
At lease he has started a debate. Let’s see where that goes.
 

SpiderTrap

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St. Marys historically has done well overseas - especially Australia. This year - they have 5 foreign players on their roster, with 3 of them from Australia. 2 of them are returning starters, a third played in all games last year off the bench and they have a frosh from Australia that stands 7-1.

I always wondered why UR has not tried this foreign route more as I think it would be a way to get kids in with our academic standards and likely play the type of system Mooney wants - which is more positionless with focus on fundamentals of passing and shooting. I feel like this is what foreign players are built on.

Of course it takes a strong recruiter with ties overseas - maybe we send Gipe on a European tour next summer to round up some kids.
 

spider23

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St. Marys historically has done well overseas - especially Australia. This year - they have 5 foreign players on their roster, with 3 of them from Australia. 2 of them are returning starters, a third played in all games last year off the bench and they have a frosh from Australia that stands 7-1.

I always wondered why UR has not tried this foreign route more as I think it would be a way to get kids in with our academic standards and likely play the type of system Mooney wants - which is more positionless with focus on fundamentals of passing and shooting. I feel like this is what foreign players are built on.

Of course it takes a strong recruiter with ties overseas - maybe we send Gipe on a European tour next summer to round up some kids.
If I am not mistaken Dayton has quite a few international players - 3 listed but I think a few more list the US prep school and not where from.
It seemed after the Josh Duinker experience Moon has cut ties on the international route.
 

SFspidur

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It seemed after the Josh Duinker experience Moon has cut ties on the international route.
I'll forgive not necessarily considering Canadians to be the traditional definition of international, but you know we have a Finnish guy on the roster, right?
 
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SFspidur

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Partial credit for Tomas...he played at least his last couple years of high school ball in Florida.
 

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