Gun violence

Eight Legger

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Everyone (I hope) is sick, tired and disgusted that this keeps happening. So what should we actually do about it? Of course the most important part – addressing the underlying causes (kids in broken homes, lack of general respect societally for others, etc.) is a time-consuming fix that candidly we'll never achieve, though we should try anyway. But here are a bunch of my ideas for more immediate band-aids. I hope others will chime in with theirs.

• Enact minimum 30-year sentences without the possibility of parole for:
- anyone convicted of any crime while in possession of a gun;
- anyone convicted of stealing a weapon;
- anyone convicted of illegally giving or selling their own gun to someone else;
- anyone convicted of gross negligence/failure to reasonably secure their own gun when that gun is stolen by someone else; (if your gun is stolen at gunpoint or something like that, you're not guilty. If you leave your gun lying around on a park bench and someone takes it and shoots up a school, you are guilty, for example). Owning a gun is a serious responsibility. Take it seriously or else go to jail.

• Establish a federally funded mental health program to help treat those who need it and to provide emergency treatment and beds in mental health facilities for those who are in crisis.

• Ban and phase out military-grade weapons. You can't own nuclear warheads or an attack helicopter for "personal defense," so the line has already been drawn somewhere when it comes to our right to own weapons. We just need to move it a bit to get rid of these machine guns.

• Raise the legal age to purchase a gun to 21. I know, plenty of 18-20 year-olds are responsible, etc. But you can't drink until you're 21 – we moved that age back three years a long time ago, too. It's time to make the same change here.

• Enact universal background checks for any gun purchases. Duh. If you have nothing to hide, you'll get your gun. If you are a crazy pyschopath with a criminal record, you won't. Not a big deal.

• Enact a national gun registry. The government already knows where you live, how much money you make and what kind of car you drive. If you own a business, in most states it knows every piece of furniture and computer equipment you own. Add guns to that list – not to spy on people, but so we can trace guns that are bought by one person and end up in the hands of another, in order to hold them both accountable.

Bottom line to me is that there are more shootings and shooting deaths here because we have twice as many guns as the next closest nation, meaning it's easier to get a gun here (legally or illegally) than anywhere else, and lots of people who shouldn't have them are getting them and killing people. Tighten that up, severely punish those who break the law (and don't let them back on the street with a slap on the wrist), and you'll see change, IMO.
 

KE Spider

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EL, I'm not going to wade into this in a big way. Will say, if you are not responsible enough to buy a gun at 18, if you are not responsible enough to buy cigarettes at 18, and if you are not responsible enough to buy alcohol at 18, why are you responsible enough to vote at 18?

As a society, we need to think through this because logically it makes zero sense.
 

Eight Legger

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Well, as a society we have typically made decisions based upon evaluated risk. Most 18 year olds are not responsible enough to be able to drink legally, hence why the age is 21. Voting is clearly the least dangerous of the things we're considering here, so at face value, there's your answer. It's the same reason why most rental care companies won't rent cars to anyone under 21 and why auto insurance is so much more expensive for males under 25 – because evidence shows that they are far more likely to get into accidents.

Young men are the ones responsible for a lion's share of gun violence.
 

spider fan

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There is a need to make schools more secure. Many do a good job of this but in the latest shooting the gunman walked through an unlocked door and was not confronted.
 
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Eight Legger

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Biden outlined his goals for this last night. Banning assault weapons and high-capacity magazines, or increasing the age to purchase them to 21, stronger background checks, removing immunity for gun manufacturers, new red flag and safe storage laws.

Banning machine guns seems like an obvious answer here, but there aren't enough votes to make that happen, so increasing the age to purchase them is a step that must be taken. The last two shooters in Buffalo and Texas waited until they were legally able to purchase them before doing so, so in a perverse way, they followed the law, meaning that sometimes it can work.

I think the general idea should be to make it as difficult as possible for someone to do this sort of thing. Any potential hurdle we can put up helps. Some 18-year-olds will still get machine guns and murder people, but others who might have won't.
 

Gallipoli

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Not really the point of this thread, but I get it: you hate Biden.
I don't hate Biden. In some ways, I pity him, because his mind is clearly gone. In other ways, I see him as a conduit for the destruction of our societal fabric. The gun violence gripping the country is a direct result of the defund the police movement and failure to place criminal behind bars. Failure to provide safe streets and safe working environments destroys hope and encourages poverty.
 
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Come on EL, “machine guns”,really. Unless permitted a Class 3 firearms license,the average citizen can only own a semi-automatic rifle. Not unlike your granddad’s.22 caliber squirrel rifle, one pull one shot. all US mass shooting have occurred with semi-automatic weapons.
 

Eight Legger

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I don't hate Biden. In some ways, I pity him, because his mind is clearly gone. In other ways, I see him as a conduit for the destruction of our societal fabric. The gun violence gripping the country is a direct result of the defund the police movement and failure to place criminal behind bars. Failure to provide safe streets and safe working environments destroys hope and encourages poverty.
So your assertion is that gun violence in this cube didn't begin until two years ago? That's not a position I would want to defend.

I do agree with putting criminals away for a long time, as I outlined in my first post here. If you commit any crime involving a gun, if you steal a gun, if you illegally give your gun to someone else or if you fail to secure your own gun, you're going to jail for 30 years if I have any say in the matter. That will become a strong deterrent quickly.
 

Eight Legger

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Come on EL, “machine guns”,really. Unless permitted a Class 3 firearms license,the average citizen can only own a semi-automatic rifle. Not unlike your granddad’s.22 caliber squirrel rifle, one pull one shot. all US mass shooting have occurred with semi-automatic weapons.
Call them whatever you want, there's no reason anyone needs an AR-15 any more than I "need" an Apache helicopter or anti-aircraft missiles. And no reason an 18 year old kid should be able to walk into a store and buy one on credit, either.
 

AnnapSpider

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EL, as a supporter of the 2nd amendment, I hate the thought of the government taking away our
rights to purchase guns. But, yes but! I don‘t have a clue why someone would want an AR-15.
Setting age limits, and having background checks makes sense. The problem, no the stupidity of
the Democratic Party is they always want to throw in a bunch of other stuff. What’s the expression-
10 lbs. of shit in a 5 lb. bag.
 
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Aug 19, 2003
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Call them whatever you want, there's no reason anyone needs an AR-15 any more than I "need" an Apache helicopter or anti-aircraft missiles. And no reason an 18 year old kid should be able to walk into a store and buy one on credit, either.
Ban every AR-15 and AK47 tomorrow , confiscate ever high capacity magazine weapon the next day. Feel like this is the solution to mass shooting. The VT shooter had Clock 17, which is .40 caliber and a .22 caliber hand gun. He killed 32. Until society realizes it’s not the weapon it’s the individual Nothing will change.
 

Gallipoli

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Ban every AR-15 and AK47 tomorrow , confiscate ever high capacity magazine weapon the next day. Feel like this is the solution to mass shooting. The VT shooter had Clock 17, which is .40 caliber and a .22 caliber hand gun. He killed 32. Until society realizes it’s not the weapon it’s the individual Nothing will change.
I live in a community where a young girl was murdered by a teenage boy, who shot her 10 times with a stolen handgun. The boy took off through the woods near my house. I see the value of an AR15.
 

Gallipoli

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New York City had an interventionist red-flag law. It was called “stop, question and frisk.” Begun in the 1990s in a city overwhelmed by gang killings, stop-and-frisk got guns and their carriers off the street. New York became the nation’s safest large city.
Justice Robert Jackson’s famous dictum that the Constitution is not a suicide pact deserves a full bipartisan reading just now: “The choice is not between order and liberty. It is between liberty with order and anarchy without either. There is danger that, if the court does not temper its doctrinaire logic with a little practical wisdom, it will convert the constitutional Bill of Rights into a suicide pact.”
Most violent guns deaths are not found in Uvalde or Virginia Tech. They are murders by local criminals in local neighborhoods. The best option is to take guns from the hands of criminals.
The constrained liberty of an AR 15 in the hands of a mentally unstable young boy should give way to the greater good. Similarly, those criminals who murder others should expect to have their rights curtailed by stop and frisk policing.
There is room for compromise.
 

Eight Legger

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I guess the irony to all of this is that the main reason people cite the need to own guns is because other people have guns. Kind of sad when you think about it.

And of course banning AR-15s won't stop every shooting or even come close, but it will present one more obstacle for those who would seek to do bad things as easily possible. If I told you a guy was chasing you down and wanted to shoot you, would you rather he had a handgun or an AR-15?

The other thing I'll say is that it doesn't need to be an either/or situation, as in either we blame the guns or we blame the person. Both can be at fault. A crazy person without access to guns can't shoot anyone. A responsible gun owner won't murder children with it.

But a crazy person with easy access to military -grade weapons, or others, can do a lot of damage. We need to make it as hard as possible for that combination to occur, if nothing else.
 
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I don‘t disagree. As far as getting shot, I’ll take the AR, unless the shooter is Carlos Hathcock, over a 44 magnum handgun anytime, but get your point.

BTW, in my opinion, far worse than the AR or AK or other high capacity rifles is the high capacity shotguns. Legally today 12 gauge shotguns are available with 19 round drum magazines. Loaded with buckshot previous shootings would appear insignificant.
 
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AnnapSpider

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I don‘t disagree. As far as getting shot, I’ll take the AR, unless the shooter is Carlos Hathcock, over a 44 magnum handgun anytime, but get your point.

BTW, in my opinion, far worse than the AR or AK or other high capacity rifles is the high capacity shotguns. Legally today 12 gauge shotguns are available with 19 round drum magazines. Loaded with buckshot previous shootings would appear insignificant.
Hey local, do you read this board? You may have given one of these guys a recommendatio. LOL
 
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Gallipoli

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I don‘t disagree. As far as getting shot, I’ll take the AR, unless the shooter is Carlos Hathcock, over a 44 magnum handgun anytime, but get your point.

BTW, in my opinion, far worse than the AR or AK or other high capacity rifles is the high capacity shotguns. Legally today 12 gauge shotguns are available with 19 round drum magazines. Loaded with buckshot previous shootings would appear insignificant.
These are great ideas. Although a shotgun with buckshot has an effective range of about 35 yards. My preference would be Clint Eastwood holding a 44 Magnum saying "Go ahead, make my day."
 

Gallipoli

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I guess the irony to all of this is that the main reason people cite the need to own guns is because other people have guns. Kind of sad when you think about it.
The irony is the only thing Biden is doing to reduce crime and gun violence is to raise gas prices. According to Uncle Joe, effective policing and enforcement of laws has nothing to do with it.
 

Eight Legger

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This is why my thought to put people in jail for 30 years with no possibility for parole if they are convicted of committing any crime using a gun; stealing a gun; illegally giving a gun to someone else; or failing to sufficiently secure their gun would help.
 

Eight Legger

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Understood, and I get why some might, but it is a necessary move. Word will get out that if you do these things, you are going away for a long time. The law can serve as an important deterrent and it's time to enact as many deterrents as we can.
 

Gallipoli

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This is why my thought to put people in jail for 30 years with no possibility for parole if they are convicted of committing any crime using a gun; stealing a gun; illegally giving a gun to someone else; or failing to sufficiently secure their gun would help.
Laws are only as good as those who enforce them. Consider the matter of Kevin Valle:

 

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