Guard play

[97spiderfan]

Observation: Watching the last few games, it is pretty clear that our guard play is killing us. Dji has great length and great defensive instincts, Randolph brings great intensity, intangibles, Goose is a really good defender. But none of them are offensive scoring threats. Mooney had banked upon Nelson being his next great scoring PG and while I still think he has that potential, right now he is so mentally broken, it is almost cringeworthy when he is in the game that you end up feeling bad for him.

Roche is a great scoring option but he is easy to defend right now because whomever is out there as the other guard is such a non scoring threat that opposing teams will just lock on Roche and let other guard dribble around aimlessly. Our offense is a complete mess right now and to me it starts and kind of ends with lack of scoring threat with the guard position and I honestly don't know what we can do about it for the rest of the season, but we need to hope that Trevor Smith is the real deal or things aren't going to look that different next year.

 

[SpiderDad75]

Observation: Watching the last few games, it is pretty clear that our guard play is killing us. Dji has great length and great defensive instincts, Randolph brings great intensity, intangibles, Goose is a really good defender. But none of them are offensive scoring threats. Mooney had banked upon Nelson being his next great scoring PG and while I still think he has that potential, right now he is so mentally broken, it is almost cringeworthy when he is in the game that you end up feeling bad for him.

Roche is a great scoring option but he is easy to defend right now because whomever is out there as the other guard is such a non scoring threat that opposing teams will just lock on Roche and let other guard dribble around aimlessly. Our offense is a complete mess right now and to me it starts and kind of ends with lack of scoring threat with the guard position and I honestly don't know what we can do about it for the rest of the season, but we need to hope that Trevor Smith is the real deal or things aren't going to look that different next year.

Great points. In regards to Smith, I’ve heard from guys that are from his area and in the know. Said he is struggling right now but I guess we can count that as hearsay. I don’t think we should believe he’s coming in here and will be a savior. He will still be a Fr and inexperienced one at that. Like you mentioned we will have Jaynel, Dji, Marcus, and Roche. I’m not willing to say he comes in and takes any of those guys spots based off what I’ve seen from coach. If I’m wrong and he does then we may have struck gold, and that’s still a win.

 

[97spiderfan]

Great points. In regards to Smith, I’ve heard from guys that are from his area and in the know. Said he is struggling right now but I guess we can count that as hearsay. I don’t think we should believe he’s coming in here and will be a savior. He will still be a Fr and inexperienced one at that. Like you mentioned we will have Jaynel, Dji, Marcus, and Roche. I’m not willing to say he comes in and takes any of those guys spots based off what I’ve seen from coach. If I’m wrong and he does then we may have struck gold, and that’s still a win.

Thanks Dad. You know I love Dji but also need to be real that I don't see a Kevin Anderson, Ced Lindsey, Kendall Anthony, SDJ or Gilly on our roster right now and we all know Mooney has to have that type of player leading his teams in order for us to even have a shot at being a team that can contend for a NCAA birth.

 

[SpiderDad75]

Thanks Dad. You know I love Dji but also need to be real that I don't see a Kevin Anderson, Ced Lindsey, Kendall Anthony, SDJ or Gilly on our roster right now and we all know Mooney has to have that type of player leading his teams in order for us to even have a shot at being a team that can contend for a NCAA birth.

No doubt def agree…our guards are going to have to be more aggressive, all of them.

 

[spiderman]

Woodside did beat Gonzaga last month and Smith led with 17. no idea how big a role he plays next year. expecting too much of a freshman usually doesn't go well.

we're going to need improvement from a bunch of spots. our young PGs have a ton of talent. expecting major improvement from the position isn't a reach.

we're going to need to add shooting to the starting lineup for sure. the most obvious answer would be Roche ... maybe at the 3 in a smaller lineup.

 

[urmite]

Great points. In regards to Smith, I’ve heard from guys that are from his area and in the know. Said he is struggling right now but I guess we can count that as hearsay. I don’t think we should believe he’s coming in here and will be a savior. He will still be a Fr and inexperienced one at that. Like you mentioned we will have Jaynel, Dji, Marcus, and Roche. I’m not willing to say he comes in and takes any of those guys spots based off what I’ve seen from coach. If I’m wrong and he does then we may have struck gold, and that’s still a win.

I don't know what Smith will do either. But if Gilly came in as a freshman next season, do you think he would get minutes comparable to the 4 returning players?

 

[Section9.RowD]

I don't know what Smith will do either. But if Gilly came in as a freshman next season, do you think he would get minutes comparable to the 4 returning players?

yeah I think he would have .. I think I watched live all but a handful of home games he played and quite a few away games. In some ways and this is not meant to be a negative, I don't think his game evolved/changed that much from freshman year to 5th year realizing I haven't reviewed his recent detailed career stats when writing this. He was amazing to watch from the start and was one a kind.

 

[SpiderDad75]

I don't know what Smith will do either. But if Gilly came in as a freshman next season, do you think he would get minutes comparable to the 4 returning players?

I couldn’t say bc I didn’t see Gilly as a Fr. Now if we are talking super Sr Gilly…yes

 

[VT4700]

Thanks Dad. You know I love Dji but also need to be real that I don't see a Kevin Anderson, Ced Lindsey, Kendall Anthony, SDJ or Gilly on our roster right now and we all know Mooney has to have that type of player leading his teams in order for us to even have a shot at being a team that can contend for a NCAA birth.

I would say most teams would need someone like that. If you are contending for an NCAA bid, chances are you getting above average guard play, especially at PG.

 

[VT4700]

I don't know what Smith will do either. But if Gilly came in as a freshman next season, do you think he would get minutes comparable to the 4 returning players?

Jacob would get 35+ minutes next year as a freshman. Don't forget, Nelson had 30+ minutes in 5 of his first 6 games, and has 12 30+ minute games this year. So, no reason why the freshman Jacob we saw would get any less than that. We need Smith to be a huge factor from day one.

 

[VT4700]

I will disagree with Mooney about something else just in case there is anyone who still thinks I never do that. Last game, I think we saw Nelson and Dji on the floor together. They should never play together, especially with our shooting and our offense struggling. Nelson is 4-20 from 3 his last 7 games, and Dji will rarely shoot a 3. And, it's not just a lack of 3s, even though a team is so much easier to defend if their guards can't make 3s. It's scoring. Our last 3 games, Dji played 55 minutes with 12 total points, going 1-1 from 3, and Nelson 58 minutes with 7 total points, going 1-7 from 3. Also, neither is drawing fouls and getting to the line. Nelson is 2-2 at the line the last 3 games, Dji 1-1.

I just think we have better options with Randolph, Roche, and Goose. I would like to see 2 of these 3 on the floor with Tyler, Bigs, and Grace for good stretches. I think Randolph needs more minutes. He can score, and I wouldn't mind seeing him start with Goose to see if we can get more scoring, and just better production from that spot. He only got 35 minutes his last 3 games, but scored 14 points. Let's see what he can do with 20+ minutes.

 

[spiderman]

Jacob would get 35+ minutes next year as a freshman. Don't forget, Nelson had 30+ minutes in 5 of his first 6 games, and has 12 30+ minute games this year. So, no reason why the freshman Jacob we saw would get any less than that. We need Smith to be a huge factor from day one.

man, I don't know. yes Mooney gave Gilyard and Nelson 30 mpg opportunities as freshmen, but both times because we were filling a graduating hole at PG.

I know so far Nelson and Bailey haven't locked anything up, but they're both the incumbents and are well thought of. I'm not so sure Smith (or even Gilyard) walk in the door and take over. all 4 are comparable recruits.

 

[VT4700]

man, I don't know. yes Mooney gave Gilyard and Nelson 30 mpg opportunities as freshmen, but both times because we were filling a graduating hole at PG.

I know so far Nelson and Bailey haven't locked anything up, but they're both the incumbents and are well thought of. I'm not so sure Smith (or even Gilyard) walk in the door and take over. all 4 are comparable recruits.

Comparable recruits means nothing. Why would that matter? Wilson and Sal were 2 of our highest rated recruits ever. I would think months of practice would mean more. Isn't it fair to say Jacob probably showed a lot in practice before he even played his 1st game here? I'm not giving up on Nelson, and I think Dji is playing only because Nelson is struggling, so if Smith separates himself in practice, and is more of a scorer, and just a better all around player, he needs a lot of minutes.

 

[spiderman]

Comparable recruits means nothing. Why would that matter? Wilson and Sal were 2 of our highest rated recruits ever. I would think months of practice would mean more. Isn't it fair to say Jacob probably showed a lot in practice before he even played his 1st game here? I'm not giving up on Nelson, and I think Dji is playing only because Nelson is struggling, so if Smith separates himself in practice, and is more of a scorer, and just a better all around player, he needs a lot of minutes.

I'm not saying Smith can't earn it. I hope he's lights out. I'm saying you can't say he'll get 30 mpg off the bat just because freshmen Gilyard and Nelson did. they came in to a different situation ... with gaping holes at PG due to the graduations of SDJ and Gilyard.

I only mention comparable recruits to say that it's not like Smith is coming in as a top 150 recruit competing against walk ons. he'll have to beat out 2 experienced guys. we've heard here a million times how Mooney favors veterans. Smith will have to be substantially better than both to win the job.

 

[urmite]

I'm not saying Smith can't earn it. I hope he's lights out. I'm saying you can't say he'll get 30 mpg off the bat just because freshmen Gilyard and Nelson did. they came in to a different situation ... with gaping holes at PG due to the graduations of SDJ and Gilyard.

I only mention comparable recruits to say that it's not like Smith is coming in as a top 150 recruit competing against walk ons. he'll have to beat out 2 experienced guys. we've heard here a million times how Mooney favors veterans. Smith will have to be substantially better than both to win the job.

VT thinks a new guard will get lots of minutes, Dad thinks he will get very few.

I think Nelson, Bailey, Randolph, Roche and Smith will all get a base of 8-12 minutes. Plus we have Tanner and 2 scholarships...

Unless someone stands out AFTER they get here I'm not sure they will get more than that.

 

[97spiderfan]

Right now, if Smith can come in and score, he is gonna get minutes next year. Nelson showed he can score but something has happened to him since conference started. He is not the same player. He is tentative, dribbling way too much. To me, he is in his own head right now.

Not sure, how we get him out of the space is in. Limiting his minutes more won't give him the chance to work through it, but watching him to try to work through it right now is painful, it seems to be making it worse. He hit that 3 ball and you were like OK, and then he had a couple bad misses and then he refused to take wide open shots and instead ending up dribbling the ball all around. I feel for the kid right now.

What I will say to both Dji and Randolph is THIS IS YOUR OPPORTUNITY and you best make the most of it. Dji took 3 shots and Randolph took 2 during Fordham. You can't score if you don't shoot and we need them both to score when they are on the floor. Seize this opportunity, gentleman.

 

[97spiderfan]

I will disagree with Mooney about something else just in case there is anyone who still thinks I never do that. Last game, I think we saw Nelson and Dji on the floor together. They should never play together, especially with our shooting and our offense struggling. Nelson is 4-20 from 3 his last 7 games, and Dji will rarely shoot a 3. And, it's not just a lack of 3s, even though a team is so much easier to defend if their guards can't make 3s. It's scoring. Our last 3 games, Dji played 55 minutes with 12 total points, going 1-1 from 3, and Nelson 58 minutes with 7 total points, going 1-7 from 3. Also, neither is drawing fouls and getting to the line. Nelson is 2-2 at the line the last 3 games, Dji 1-1.

I just think we have better options with Randolph, Roche, and Goose. I would like to see 2 of these 3 on the floor with Tyler, Bigs, and Grace for good stretches. I think Randolph needs more minutes. He can score, and I wouldn't mind seeing him start with Goose to see if we can get more scoring, and just better production from that spot. He only got 35 minutes his last 3 games, but scored 14 points. Let's see what he can do with 20+ minutes.

You can say the same thing about any of our guards right now. None of them are scoring. Dji and Nelson on the floor together is no worse than Nelson and Goose or Nelson and Randolph or any other combo. They have to score.

 

[VT4700]

You can say the same thing about any of our guards right now. None of them are scoring. Dji and Nelson on the floor together is no worse than Nelson and Goose or Nelson and Randolph or any other combo. They have to score.

I think Goose will continue to get good minutes. Let's give Randolph and Roche more. Last 3 games, Nelson has 58 minutes and Dji 55, while Randolph only has 35 and Roche 26. Goose, Roche, and Randolph are each over 40% from 3. Maybe Randolph and Roche get hot with more minutes. We kind of know what we have elsewhere right now, and it hasn't been pretty offensively.

I realize Nelson and Dji are getting more minutes because they are at PG, but do they really need to? Are they really doing PG things? Are they penetrating and setting guys up? Are they making 3s to open things up for others? Nelson's minutes dropped, and Dji gained them, but that does nothing for us offensively, and likely hurts us offensiveIy instead of helping us. I think Randolph and Goose could be fine at PG the way we are using our PGs right now. Let's try that.

 

[VT4700]

97, I agree 100% about the importance of guard scoring. Here is something I posted a few days ago:

As with probably every team in college basketball, it is all about guard scoring for us. It's just way too hard to win without guards who can consistently score.
Starting with KA's 1st year in 2008, we had 2 or more guards average double figures in ppg every year except 2011, when KA averaged 16.6, 2016, when ShawnDre averaged 15.1, 2019, when Jacob averaged 16.2, and 2022, when Jacob averaged 13.3.
So, 11 of the last 15 years, 2 or more guards averaged double figures, and the other 4 years, our one guard who did still averaged well into double figures and often led us in scoring.
This year, Nelson is our highest scoring guard at 8.7 a game, and his last 7 games, he is averaging 4.6 a game.

 

[Spider B]

I think Goose will continue to get good minutes. Let's give Randolph and Roche more. Last 3 games, Nelson has 58 minutes and Dji 55, while Randolph only has 35 and Roche 26. Goose, Roche, and Randolph are each over 40% from 3. Maybe Randolph and Roche get hot with more minutes. We kind of know what we have elsewhere right now, and it hasn't been pretty offensively.

I realize Nelson and Dji are getting more minutes because they are at PG, but do they really need to? Are they really doing PG things? Are they penetrating and setting guys up? Are they making 3s to open things up for others? Nelson's minutes dropped, and Dji gained them, but that does nothing for us offensively, and likely hurts us offensiveIy instead of helping us. I think Randolph and Goose could be fine at PG the way we are using our PGs right now. Let's try that.

I don't it matters much which guards play. The issue is we are running an offensive system designed for shooters and we don't have enough of them. Square peg, round hole. So either the roster is poorly put together or the system has to change to fit the roster. I'd play Dji because of his length on defense. I'd also play Roche because he can shoot. We struggle to score 60 points! Problem is we never run a set for Roche because we are married to the CM offensive system. What a mess.

 

[VT4700]

Do you think The Citadel ran anything for Roche? Probably, because he shot 9.9 3s per 40 minutes there. Here, he is at 9.6. And, per 100 possessions, at The Citadel he shot 13.9 3s, while here he is at 14.4. It is not the lack of sets or shots, it's the lack of minutes. Taking it a step farther, it's amazing how similar his numbers are per minute played.

Last season: 36.2 mpg. 3.5-8.9 (39.7%) from 3.
This season: 18.4 mpg. 1-8-4.4 (40.6%) from 3.

 

[SpiderDad75]

I’ve been hearing for 3 yrs that coach favors the veterans…and he has the 1st two years and to the extent this year too in regards to Goose. I just can’t see those who have been harping on loyalty and veterans being favored and now we have a guy that comes in as a FR and takes the job from 4 experienced guards 😶 I don’t get it. If Smith comes in and is lights out, then you play him but you can’t say in the last 3 yrs or last 18 yrs that veterans haven’t been favored bc that’s nonsense to me. No question if Smith comes in and dominates Jaynel, Dji, Marcus, & even Roche then he absolutely deserves it. Those 4 guys have to be able to score more…I agree wholeheartedly. But should the way we played Fordham be a way forward bc of not having great shooters? Idk but I’m personally not crazy about the system, I think it restricts our athletes. It was created for non-athletic guys in order to compete against those P5 athletic teams back in the day. But the game has changed tremendously and I know Coach isn’t running carbon copy of what he ran while at Princeton, but it is the system here and guys have to adapt and get better at shooting. I would like to see more paint touches by the guards to create those open looks for TB, Matt, Roche or Zay 🤷🏼‍♂️ Jmo.

 

[Spider B]

Do you think The Citadel ran anything for Roche? Probably, because he shot 9.9 3s per 40 minutes there. Here, he is at 9.6. And, per 100 possessions, at The Citadel he shot 13.9 3s, while here he is at 14.4. It is not the lack of sets or shots, it's the lack of minutes. Taking it a step farther, it's amazing how similar his numbers are per minute played.

Last season: 36.2 mpg. 3.5-8.9 (39.7%) from 3.
This season: 18.4 mpg. 1-8-4.4 (40.6%) from 3.

IC, his looks have been much more difficult IMO and his percentage from 3 has dropped. Run a play to get your best shooter a quality shot.

 

[SpiderDad75]

What happened to best players play argument? I agree B I think we may need to run some things for Roche bc I think it’s obvious creating his own shot isn’t his game. Teams also know Roche is our 3 pt threat so he’s def on the scout.

 

[Spider B]

What happened to best players play argument? I agree B I think we may need to run some things for Roche bc I think it’s obvious creating his own shot isn’t his game. Teams also know Roche is our 3 pt threat so he’s def on the scout.

Yes sir. Adapt to the roster you have.

 

[SpiderK]

What happened to best players play argument? I agree B I think we may need to run some things for Roche bc I think it’s obvious creating his own shot isn’t his game. Teams also know Roche is our 3 pt threat so he’s def on the scout.

Agreed , and we need to get Bailey to shoot more also. He has to be a threat.

 

[SpiderK]

Jason “Chitwood”
Roach

 

[SpiderDad75]

Agreed , and we need to get Bailey to shoot more also. He has to be a threat.

Agreed K…if I had hair I’d pull it out

 

[spider23]

Our starting back court, 7 shots 15 points. GW's starting back court, 41 shots, 68 points.

Not saying our guys need to jack, but way too much Goose and Dji catch the ball and don't even look at the basket. That killed us , and of course getting absolutely torched.

 

[SpiderDad75]

Our starting back court, 7 shots 15 points. GW's starting back court, 41 shots, 68 points.

Not saying our guys need to jack, but way too much Goose and Dji catch the ball and don't even look at the basket. That killed us , and of course getting absolutely torched.

Def agree Dji and Goose have to look to score more. They just have too

 

[gcarter52]

I don’t want to beat a dead horse but did we not lose basically our entire team last year our transfers had to learn our complicated system then develop chemistry. Can’t wait to see guys we sign.

 

[spiderman]

I'm not buying that any more. we used to have a complicated defensive system. it's not complicated any more. it's man, with some switching so there's a lot of communication, but it's still man.

and offensively, this system isn't any more complicated than what everyone else runs. it does require guys with certain skillsets. but end of the day you have to dribble, pass and shoot. it's basketball. and we've got experienced guys. plus they've been at it together all summer, fall and winter.

 

[UR79&Peanuts]

It all starts with the “CHIEF”

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

and as said here ad nauseum, if you're running a system that takes minimum 2 years to learn in today's college basketball environment, you're a dinosaur. The portal means guys have to be able to come in and play - and play effectively in a system - immediately.

EDIT to add: my analogy for this is like when Duke pretended for a couple years it wouldn't take 1-and-done guys, then saw they would be dusted if they did that, so they quietly went ahead and became one of its leading proponents. You have to accept the reality of modern college ball.

 

[CarolinaSpider]

How many times have we lost to teams with 5 guys on floor that can score and more
importantly have guards who can shoot outside? Not counting Roche our lineup of guards
are no threat to score outside and cannot create their shot. Mooney now has Burton and Grace
leaving who probably shot the most threes during the conference season. Change the offense or bring in proven
scorers from outside the lane

 

[SpiderAlways]

I don’t want to beat a dead horse but did we not lose basically our entire team last year our transfers had to learn our complicated system then develop chemistry. Can’t wait to see guys we sign.

Are we a program or does it always take 4 years to have a chance again. You’re a Mooney guy, I get that. But it’s always rebuild, never reload, next class up

 

[PalmTreeSpidUR]

I wish Dji had been available today. It might have made a difference.

And where was Roche?

 

[MrTbone]

I wish Dji had been available today. It might have made a difference.

And where was Roche?

Maybe he was playing Simon sez…

 

[PalmTreeSpidUR]

But Simon didn't say "miss all your threes."

 

[GKiller]

I wish Dji had been available today. It might have made a difference.

And where was Roche?

Maybe. Bc it also could have meant more time for Goose at PG & more for Roche & Randolph & Bigs on wings. Bigs was pretty solid today tho 2 three’s too many. This was a halfcourt game.

Dji is injury prone that’s another concern for next year but down the list of concerns.