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Early A10 COY question

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SpiderTrap

Graduate Assistant
Nov 6, 2007
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Does Coach of the Year honors for the A10 focus on just the A10 schedule or the whole schedule including OOC.

If whole schedule - you got to think Mooney is in the mix for this award. Winning just 13 games last season and UR already has 12 at the beginning of January. Assuming UR gets in the top 4, and may need to crack top 3 - Mooney probably has a chance at A10 COY honors given the improvement from last year to this year.
Think Grant from Dayton will be in there as well - especially if Dayton can finish the A10 regular season with a top 15 national ranking.
 
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Wow, this is early. I think it's the whole season, but I don't know for sure.
If Duquesne can stay in the mix, given their pre-season expectations, Dambrot will get some votes.
 
It just crossed my mind because I think the main reason UR didn't fire Mooney last year was because of the buyout. But a secondary reason also was the fact he become UR's all time leader in wins last year - hard to fire a guy who just broke the record for most wins.
I personally think no matter what Mooney is back next year as bringing him back with this roster was a 2 year expectation - you got the same guys for 2 years, make the NCAA in 1 of them.
But I could see a scenario where UR finishes 4th and maybe Mooney gets COY honors and we get an NIT bid? Some on here will be saying he should be fired then - but can you really fire the COY in your conference? Even if he came in 2nd for COY - that would be tough to do as well.
 
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Meh. Kinda sick of hearing about that "record." Jimnasium's ridiculous extension made it very improbable he wouldn't break it. That's rewarding longevity for longevity's sake. He broke Losin' Lew's record 3 years ago. So you're basically doubling up on reason one. Tony Shaver's W&M's all-time winningest coach. So?

Percentage-wise, CM's 5th on the list, below Wainwright who we couldn't wait to get rid of.

But yeah, if he's COY he'd be impossible to fire, and he shouldn't be fired. So, count on VCU to vote for him. :) When Jerry Angelos fired (ahem, "accepted the resignation of") Davey Johnson the day he was named MOY I lost interest in the Orioles.

I don't know if the A10 makes the voting public, other than the winners. I don't see the runner-up to Rhoades in 2019 published anywhere.
 
Dayton is a Top 20 team and many people's sneaky pick to make a Final Four run. If they play the second half of the season like they did the first half, you can go ahead and pencil Grant's name on COY.

If Mooney wins it, I'll be stoked, cause we are going to the NCAA with a pretty good seed at that. I don't see that happening currently.
 
Does anyone even care about COY? Sports awards are for players and kids imo. Now if he has an automatic 2 year extension or something for COY then yeah let's care. With the way we do contracts at UR it's not out of the realm of possibility.

Personally I'd be a little embarrassed to win that. A coach in year 15 of a program and you win COY after 9 straight seasons of not going to NCAA? That would be the ultimate participation trophy.

Personally if we don't make it I think it's bad coaching. Now people who vote for these kind of things in a scratch your back kind of way may not get that. We have a really good team, weapons across the board, a legit 7-8 deep, we were Net 22 after 11 games, and our internal expectations were NCAA.

If we have people who make decisions based on a COY fluff award in light of all that I don't want those people in charge.
 
Who was COY in the A-10 in 2010-11 during our Sweet 16 run? Did he get any votes that year?
 
SpiderTrap said:
Winning just 13 games last season and UR already has 12 at the beginning of January.
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He coached the team to only 13 wins last year. That poor performance shouldn't be a positive toward him winning coach of the year this season.

Aside from that point it would be hard to argue that he hasn't been one of the best coaches in the A10 so far this season. For the most part he has put together a great roster and managed in game much better than in recent memory. Still more than half a season to go though, so this is a VERY early discussion of the topic.
 
Mooney wins A-10 COY, Richmond wins in the first round of the tourney, and then a P5 school offers Mooney a job and we let him go? Maybe BC comes back? Best of all worlds?
 
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It is extremely early for "Who is going to win?"
It is not too early for "What is the criteria?"
 
9Legs said:
Who was COY in the A-10 in 2010-11 during our Sweet 16 run? Did he get any votes that year?
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looks like it was Chris Mack of Xavier that year...yes remember Xavier! They finished ranked #20 and were 24-8
 
interesting enough Shaka didn't win COY in the CAA that year....(final four run)
 
kneepadmckinney said:
I just assumed this was a massive troll job...
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Trap likes the contrarian posts. He dislikes Mooney like the rest of us but loves to put out the unlikely future where Mooney is knighted just to rile up the board.

Next loss, we will see the we make the NIT this year and NCAA next year and Mooney is given a 5 year extension post. We've seen it already in a variety of iterations.
 
ChoppinBroccoli said:
Those awards are usually based on the regular season. IIRC, VCU finished 4th in the CAA.
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Correct. They only went 12-6 in the CAA (and 9-4 OOC) and finished 4th. After losing 4 of their last 5 regular season games, Shaka didn't even have a viewing party because no one even thought they were on the bubble. Back to the A-10, in a conference like the A-10, the regular season champ should probably get coach of the year, unless it is VCU this year, and they want to give it to another coach instead of giving to the defending regular season champ who won it last year.
 
Well - the whole board is contrarian in a way, and with a week off between games - just trying to fill some time and thought this would be interesting. My opinion has always stayed the same - if you were going to fire Mooney, last year was the year to do it. By not doing it last year - you can't get rid of him after this year. He would have to lose every game the rest of the season to consider that.

But since you bring up the contract extension in a contrarian way - I will pose another question. If this team makes the NIT, which I think right now is the consensus on this board - no one is ready to commit and say we are an NCAA lock at this point, but I would say based on what we have seen so far - we should feel pretty solid about the NIT.

Mooney's contract runs through 21-22, so as of this minute - he is under contract for the next 2 seasons. After this season - that can make recruiting extremely difficult as you are probably talking to rising HS sophmores and juniors this summer and your contract will end before they even enter UR. So safe to assume we make the NIT, maybe Mooney comes in 2nd in A10 COY - do you extend the contract? Or are you waiting until next season for the make or break year of NCAA appearance? And willing to possibly sacrifice a class or two of recruiting in the process assuming this team makes the tourney next season and you wait until after next season to extend him (I personally would bet the house on this team making the tourney NEXT season). By that time - the staff may have missed out on some key recruits because of the lack of extension and confidence Mooney will be around (you can be sure other coaches will use this to recruit against us), and therefore possibly digging a hole for about 2 years post NCAA bid.

Point being - if money is the major factor in not getting rid of Mooney last year due to the buyout, then this could possibly also hurt us if they administration is unwilling to extend him at least 2 years after this season. Ultimately - your going to have to pay a buyout one way or another if you ever want to fire a coach and consider yourself top level sports program. Otherwise you dig yourself and the new coach a hole in recruiting.

Was that contrarian enough on a Wednesday?
 
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Not all NITs are the same. If we make the NIT, and Hardt is satisfied with how we played, and how things look for next year, extend one year through 2023. You can sell recruits on the positive of we just extended our coach another year. And, then, if we don't make the dance next year, and you want to make a change, you are only eating 2 years of the contract.

If we make the NIT, but struggle down the stretch, lose right away in the A-10 tourney, and lose early in the NIT, that is when it gets interesting. It would tough to extend after that, so do you make a change, or go one more year in a final year of the contract situation?

I think we will either make the dance, or get a high seed in the NIT after a 22-24 win season, so I think we will see an extension after this year.
 
I tend to agree, but think the school will give him at least 2 years after this season. I think if we make the NIT, it will just be 2 years added on to the current deal, and then he gets the longer extension after next season with an NCAA bid.
If UR makes the NIT this year - I think you see him extended to a contract that secures him for at least 5 years, with a little raise in there as well, and if they make it again next season - look out for the Brinks truck. Mooney will get interviews after back to back appearances and UR will have to decide do they want to keep him or let him walk.
 
SpiderTrap said:
But since you bring up the contract extension in a contrarian way - I will pose another question. If this team makes the NIT, which I think right now is the consensus on this board - no one is ready to commit and say we are an NCAA lock at this point,
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Mortal lock. Done. Throw away the key. NCAA or bust.

SpiderTrap said:
and if they make it again next season - look out for the Brinks truck. Mooney will get interviews after back to back appearances and UR will have to decide do they want to keep him or let him walk.
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Oh crap the Brinks truck. Can we afford it? Trap if u were giving Joe freaking Lunardi a 3 year 300k guaranteed deal watch out Mooney might get a Matt Rhule contract.
 
Or we make the NIT this year, extend for a total of five years, but reduce the buyout either way. If he does poorly it costs less to let him go, if he wins and becomes the hot item, cheaper for the new school (which often pays the new coach buyout). Win Win for both sides.
 
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That is an interesting idea of lowering the buyout, but you know for sure his agent will not go for it. And it could hurt with potential new coaches, and someday we will need a new coach - as if this type of information were to leak, they may see UR as less desirable or less committed because they are doing a full buyout like they did previously for Mooney and like I have to believe most coaches get at the upper levels of college hoops.
I would guess most coaches have a full buyout of their contract, or the buyout is lessened for a certain small set of reasons.
 
urfan1 said:
Or we make the NIT this year, extend for a total of five years, but reduce the buyout either way. If he does poorly it costs less to let him go, if he wins and becomes the hot item, cheaper for the new school (which often pays the new coach buyout). Win Win for both sides.
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you can't extend the term to 5 years and have a smaller buyout than the 2 years he currently has remaining. that makes absolutely no sense. you don't have a 5 year contract then.
 
SpiderTrap said:
That is an interesting idea of lowering the buyout, but you know for sure his agent will not go for it. And it could hurt with potential new coaches, and someday we will need a new coach - as if this type of information were to leak, they may see UR as less desirable or less committed because they are doing a full buyout like they did previously for Mooney and like I have to believe most coaches get at the upper levels of college hoops.
I would guess most coaches have a full buyout of their contract, or the buyout is lessened for a certain small set of reasons.
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what is a 'full buyout'? Not sure you understand the term buyout. If a coach is to receive his full pay when he's dismissed there is no buyout at all. Even the US govt does actual buyouts with civil employees. Check out NHL buyouts. And certainly it is quite common with high level college sports coaching contracts. I have no idea if Mooney has a buyout, but if we gave him a 10 year deal (plus 1 yr extension) without one we did it wrong.
 
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Mooney should be happy with whatever he is offered. His response to any contract negotiation should be please, thank you, and where should I sign. Hardt should also utilize this opportunity to make any changes he has been wanting to make as well. If Mooney balks at anything, well then just play out your contract and we can talk next year or likewise see who out in the marketplace is willing to give him something better (that answer would be no one).
 
Correct GKiller - the "buyout" in Mooney's case is not really a buyout, it is basically you must pay the full amount of the remaining contract. That is what he has in place at this moment (per multiple sources inside the Robins Center). And this is the type of agreement the majority of major coaches get in the top level programs. I would even expect it from the top coaches in our league - the A10.

I would expect it has become the norm in P5 programs and top level mid-major programs because it shows your committed to the coach, and shows your commitment to the basketball program. Anyone can agree to pay a coach $1 million year, but then throw in there, we can fire you and if we do - we only need to pay you a buyout of $100K - that would show not only lack of commitment to the coach and staff, but also the program overall.
BUT - as I have said before many times, when you agree to that contract, and your willing to spend that type of money - you also have to be willing to spend that money - if needed - to get rid of the coach. You can't act rich and wealthy when you offer the contract, then act poor when you want to get out of it. Which is what I think UR did and I am sure some other programs along the way have done the same who tried to "fake" being a real athletic/sports program.
 
SpiderTrap said:
Correct GKiller - the "buyout" in Mooney's case is not really a buyout, it is basically you must pay the full amount of the remaining contract. That is what he has in place at this moment (per multiple sources inside the Robins Center). And this is the type of agreement the majority of major coaches get in the top level programs. I would even expect it from the top coaches in our league - the A10.

I would expect it has become the norm in P5 programs and top level mid-major programs because it shows your committed to the coach, and shows your commitment to the basketball program. Anyone can agree to pay a coach $1 million year, but then throw in there, we can fire you and if we do - we only need to pay you a buyout of $100K - that would show not only lack of commitment to the coach and staff, but also the program overall.
BUT - as I have said before many times, when you agree to that contract, and your willing to spend that type of money - you also have to be willing to spend that money - if needed - to get rid of the coach. You can't act rich and wealthy when you offer the contract, then act poor when you want to get out of it. Which is what I think UR did and I am sure some other programs along the way have done the same who tried to "fake" being a real athletic/sports program.
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We f'd up the Mooney contract then. We had little leverage w Mooney at time, but when we did the 1 year extension that was at least time to negotiate one. Maybe we used the same lawyers we did against the Spyder apparel brand. Anyway disagree about no buyouts being the norm. Do you have stats on that? I can only tell u there is plenty on high level college coaches with buyouts out there publicly and I personally know a couple agents in the business who would contradict your position. With the % of coaches that end up either being fired w or w/o cause, or move on to another job, the buyouts r required business practice. Not saying they all have them, but at the high levels it is common and only trending more that way. How can you not w the dollar figures.

Of course the buyouts aren't small and they are variable depending on the timing. Your 100k buyout example is fantasy. Nobody has a 10:1 ratio like that. Sure that kind of buyout would raise questions but it's not reality. But any buyout saves you something from owing the full amount.

Remember u had Lunardi getting a 3 year 300k guaranteed deal from UR so sorry it's hard to take your finance takes too seriously. I do agree with your last paragraph tho.

spiderman said:
which NHL buyouts are you referring to? coaches?
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No players. Only was using as example of what a buyout meant.
 
my understanding is that the salary part of a college basketball coach's compensation is guaranteed. no discount upon termination. that's market. other income, for example performance bonuses and coaches shows, goes away. and no coach who has any alternatives would sign it any other way.
 
SpiderTrap said:
Correct GKiller - the "buyout" in Mooney's case is not really a buyout, it is basically you must pay the full amount of the remaining contract. That is what he has in place at this moment (per multiple sources inside the Robins Center). And this is the type of agreement the majority of major coaches get in the top level programs. I would even expect it from the top coaches in our league - the A10.

I would expect it has become the norm in P5 programs and top level mid-major programs because it shows your committed to the coach, and shows your commitment to the basketball program. Anyone can agree to pay a coach $1 million year, but then throw in there, we can fire you and if we do - we only need to pay you a buyout of $100K - that would show not only lack of commitment to the coach and staff, but also the program overall.
BUT - as I have said before many times, when you agree to that contract, and your willing to spend that type of money - you also have to be willing to spend that money - if needed - to get rid of the coach. You can't act rich and wealthy when you offer the contract, then act poor when you want to get out of it. Which is what I think UR did and I am sure some other programs along the way have done the same who tried to "fake" being a real athletic/sports program.
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You may be missing GK's point, which is that the provider of the buyout is only on the hook for that amount that the recipient of the buyout isn't earning elsewhere. If CM or a similarly situated employee ends up employed elsewhere, his buyout is reduced by whatever the earnings are at the new employer. Or conversely, the prior employer is owed that buyout by the new employer if the employee takes employment elsewhere.

I think at this point, there's likely to be some degree of buyout reduction given the extended lack of success, at least on the years that have been added. I also think it's unlikely we go another year without giving CM something, that just seems impractical.

I'm not defending or promoting an extension btw, merely suggesting that I expect an AD would be largely obligated to consider it or be prepared for the potential recruiting fallout in the out years.
 
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spiderman said:
my understanding is that the salary part of a college basketball coach's compensation is guaranteed. no discount upon termination. that's market. other income, for example performance bonuses and coaches shows, goes away. and no coach who has any alternatives would sign it any other way.
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Sman here is link u and trap can review with buyout info on coaches. You'll find lots of buyouts at much less than the full balance of what is left on deal. Mooney and other private schools not on there but private schools do them too for sure. & that does not even include offset buyout language Tbone referenced. Some wouldn't have those and others have no buyouts at all (Mooney apparently in that category), but think you'll find it's not uncommon.

https://watchstadium.com/college-ba...uyout-database-for-2019-20-season-10-24-2019/
 
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