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Coaches vs VCU

urfan1

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Jan 9, 2003
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Wit the help of SF, this is what we put together. Feel free to correct or comment:

Slone (74-78) 43-63, 5-3
Goetz (78-81) 38-44, 1-6
Tarrant (81-93) 239-126, 9-15
Dooley (93-97) 43-69, 1-6
Beilein (97-02) 100-53, 7-3
Wainwright (02-05) 50-41, 1-2
Mooney (05-present) 323-253, 8-23
 
The previous 2 coaches were 8-5 and Mooney is 8-23. That is just so on brand and unsurprising
 
Here’s the worst part. Mooney has had literally every advantage. When he took over, we were in a better conference than VCU. We were spending money than them. It was all there for the taking.

And we’ve watched VCU not just pass us, but arguably lap us. Our goal (according to the most ardent Mooney defenders) is just Top 4 in the A10. VCU’s goal is to win the A10.

The A10 has fallen off a cliff while Mooney has been here and we have lowered our expectations while increasing Mooney’s pay. And people still love Mooney. It’s unbelievable.

Other than Dayton, there’s not a program left in the A10 that we weren’t better positioned then. We should have the goal of winning the A10 every year if we were just treading water.

I don’t want to hear any other defenses of Mooney. We could have paid any reasonable coach a significant amount less money and gotten an equal return. Throwing good money at a bad investment is not to be admired. Write the damn bad investment off and put your money into a cause where there is legitimate hope for a better outcome.
 
Here’s the worst part. Mooney has had literally every advantage. When he took over, we were in a better conference than VCU. We were spending money than them. It was all there for the taking.

And we’ve watched VCU not just pass us, but arguably lap us. Our goal (according to the most ardent Mooney defenders) is just Top 4 in the A10. VCU’s goal is to win the A10.

The A10 has fallen off a cliff while Mooney has been here and we have lowered our expectations while increasing Mooney’s pay. And people still love Mooney. It’s unbelievable.

Other than Dayton, there’s not a program left in the A10 that we weren’t better positioned then. We should have the goal of winning the A10 every year if we were just treading water.

I don’t want to hear any other defenses of Mooney. We could have paid any reasonable coach a significant amount less money and gotten an equal return. Throwing good money at a bad investment is not to be admired. Write the damn bad investment off and put your money into a cause where there is legitimate hope for a better outcome.
DT, well said. Hear. Hear!
 
The previous 2 coaches were 8-5 and Mooney is 8-23. That is just so on brand and unsurprising
Only unsurprising if you do not compare VCU's teams. Beilein got 4 of the wins when VCU was 9-19 in 1998 and 15-16 in 1999, and 2 more in 2001 when they were 16-14.

VCU's win totals starting in 2006: 19, 28, 24, 24, 27, 28, 29, 27 26, 26, 25, 26, 18, 25, 18, 19, 22.
 
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VT, let’s accept your points re the quality of VCU teams as valid. Given that, I would like to understand how did UR fall so far behind VCU having what I feel is a truly superior institution with outstanding facilities? It has certainly had coaching stability. It has a core (maybe dwindling) fan base. UR has thrown money at basketball and made it the marquee sport. On the surface, this is seemingly a massive advantage that inexplicably does not show in the record. I am interested in your statistical take.
 
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VT, let’s accept your points re the quality of VCU teams as valid. Given that, I would like to understand how did UR fall so far behind VCU having what I feel is a truly superior institution with outstanding facilities? It has certainly had coaching stability. It has a core (maybe dwindling) fan base. UR has thrown money at basketball and made it the marquee sport. On the surface, this is seemingly a massive advantage that inexplicably does not show in the record. I am interested in your statistical take.
I am way more impressed with what VCU has done than not impressed with what we have done. I think a lot of people that are fans of neither would agree with me on that. VCU averaged an incredible 26+ wins during an 11 year run from 2007-2017. So, to be ahead of them like many on here say they expected us to be, we would have needed to average 27 wins a year. I know, I know, I am not aiming high enough. Well, whatever. No, sorry, I didn't expect us to average 27 wins during that stretch.

And, do you really think any advantage you might think we have in certain areas comes close to the advantage they have in letting guys in? Would they turn guys like Malcolm Bernard and JJ Avila down?
 
It's all good. Queally says we now have "alignment throughout the institution" that was missing in the past, so it's smooth sailing for the hoops program now. We're also getting good value with Mooney considering he's not in the top four highest paid A-10 coaches. And given Queally claims only a small fraction of other A-10 starters outside of those at Davidson could be admitted to UR, we're doing great.

Seems like the major hurdle he sees is NIL given our small alumni base.
 
Better yet, pay Schmidt what we're paying Mooney, let him bring in 13 completely new players next year and watch what happens.
Lose to previously 0-6 A-10 Loyola? I'm sure our message board would be thrilled with Mooney if we lost to an 0-6 A-10 team.
 
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I don’t want to hear any other defenses of Mooney.
Why does this bother you and others so much? It's unreal on here. A few of us mention some positives about our program or our coach, and all heck breaks loose. Why so much anger?
 
Lose to previously 0-6 A-10 Loyola? I'm sure our message board would be thrilled with Mooney if we lost to an 0-6 A-10 team. See, this is EL at his finest. Say things like this where he can be right in his mind no matter what. If St Bona wins today, he can say "see, look at what Schmidt can do with new guys". If they lose like they did today, get ready for the "Loyola beat them and we can't" talk.
so because SBU lost to the worst team in the conference in your ConMoon infatuated mind that somehow makes their victory over us easier to swallow?
 
If UR truly has an inability to find 10 (or less) academically qualified basketball athletes with A10 winning skills, it should drop to a lesser league and spend far less on the program for similar NCAA appearances. Why, oh why, did it ever leave CAA basketball (and sponsor VCU’s membership ) if it had an inability to compete at this level? One of the reasons Mooney came here was the better A10 competition or, in hindsight, was it simply the better A10 pay?
 
If UR truly has an inability to find 10 (or less) academically qualified basketball athletes with A10 winning skills, it should drop to a lesser league and spend far less on the program for similar NCAA appearances. Why, oh why, did it ever leave CAA basketball (and sponsor VCU’s membership ) if it had an inability to compete at this level? One of the reasons Mooney came here was the better A10 competition or, in hindsight, was it simply the better A10 pay?
Who said anything about not competing (your words, not mine) at this level? We just won our conference "at this level" last season. We just went 24-7 and 14-4 IC in 2020. Yet, another strange post on a board full of thousands of them.

And, I never said we can't find academically qualified basketball players. But, let me ask you this: Do you think we would have had better or worse teams with Bernard and Avila?
 
Who said anything about not competing (your words, not mine) at this level? We just won our conference "at this level" last season. We just went 24-7 and 14-4 IC in 2020. Yet, another strange post on a board full of thousands of them.
The two years prior to your magical 2020 season we lost 40 games, but they don’t count in cherry picking land. As most have pointed out repeatedly, Mooney is a 55 pct winning coach. But good enough for some.
 
We won the conference after a lackluster regular season and had a great run in the tournament. Was that all coach or uber-experienced super seniors who finally wanted a winning legacy?

As to “competing”, I specified with A10 WINNING skills.
 
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The two years prior to your magical 2020 season we lost 40 games, but they don’t count in cherry picking land. As most have pointed out repeatedly, Mooney is a 55 pct winning coach. But good enough for some.
Not cherry picking. Responding to the "we have an inability to compete" talk. I would think to make my point I should use years where we did compete, at a very high level, the very highest last March. But, hey, you just keep being you and do it your way while wrongly accusing others of cherry picking.
 
We won the conference after a lackluster regular season and had a great run in the tournament. Was that all coach or uber-experienced super seniors who finally wanted a winning legacy?
LOL. If that is what March was, what was last night?
 
Yes, we would have been better with Avilla and Bernard. I can't believe Mooney and Queally did not have the weight and fortitude to push those through. It seems that between many a critical recruiting battle, or battle with admin, moon and queals could not get it done.
 
I don’t think we’ve had any issues with admissions in over six seasons, at least none that hit the public radar.

Recruiting has looked better in those last 5-6 years, with 1 ncaa tournament (let’s just accept we probably only get 1 either in 2020 if they held it, or the 1 in 2022 with guys who would have otherwise been gone).

So I’m willing to see if the trend continues but this season isn’t a ringing endorsement that with “better recruits” we are on a consistent 22+ per year win average and more consistent ncaa berths.
 
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Not cherry picking. Responding to the "we have an inability to compete" talk. I would think to make my point I should use years where we did compete, at a very high level, the very highest last March. But, hey, you just keep being you and do it your way while wrongly accusing others of cherry picking.
You're absolutely cherry picking. Most people on here that whine and complain as you call it do so because of the inconsistency of winning (competing) at a high level. You keep throwing 2020 24-7 out there so is it safe to assume that is your definition of "high level?" If so, then there has to be a preponderance of seasons where Mooney's winning percentage is less than 77% for him to have a life time winning percentage of 55%. That's the issue. 20+ win seasons that lead to NCAA bids are great when they happen but they don't happen often enough to justify the school's investment in our basketball program. It's totally hilarious that you continue to call all of us fine UR graduates foolish for wanting something more. Keep him, name a building after him, provide 55 free parking spaces at the RC in his name, I don't really care at this point but please quit trying to convince some of us that we can't do better and that we're idiots for believing that we can. As another poster has stated we got beat by a team cobbled together a couple of months prior to the season starting who just got beat by the worst team in the league. We're mediocre in a mediocre league. Not good enough.
 
Why does this bother you and others so much? It's unreal on here. A few of us mention some positives about our program or our coach, and all heck breaks loose. Why so much anger?

I’m not sure if this is a serious question or not. But I’ll pretend it’s genuine.

Really - I’m sad. And to be absolutely clear, I do not blame Mooney. The fault is above him for those not taking action. Chris is cashing a check like the rest of us and it’s not his fault the decision makers have kept him here. I was actually a Mooney supporter in the early days when some of the faithful wanted to run him off for using poor language.

As to why I’m sad and perhaps angry. I’ve been a spider fan before Mooney and, god willing, after Mooney. During that time I’ve made significant donations of time & money to the school (both academics and athletics). Was a long-time season ticket holder for basketball & football and traveled to several away games and made consistent & meaningful (to me) recurring donations to spider club and special projects (like practice facilities).

I’ve watched UR slash budgets to other sports (due to MBB costs and lowered than projected earnings, ie NCAA units). I’ve watched UR basketball decline in national prominence. I’ve witnessed the decline in expectations. I used to enjoy the health banter with VCU co-workers (or JMU coworkers for football). Now…they just say they feel bad and miss that UR isn’t competitive. I’m disappointed and sad. I’ve expressed my concerns and frustrations to the AD office and they didn’t seem to care. I’m still active on the academic side of campus where they value contributions. I miss UR athletics. I know several others in my same shoes.

Hopefully that helps explain it. You don’t have to agree but hopefully you’ve read this and understand. I have put a lot of my heart into UR and I’m frustrated that the AD (or the most ardent Mooney-first proponents) doesn’t appear to care that fans like me have been driven away.
 
I’m not sure if this is a serious question or not. But I’ll pretend it’s genuine.

Really - I’m sad. And to be absolutely clear, I do not blame Mooney. The fault is above him for those not taking action. Chris is cashing a check like the rest of us and it’s not his fault the decision makers have kept him here. I was actually a Mooney supporter in the early days when some of the faithful wanted to run him off for using poor language.

As to why I’m sad and perhaps angry. I’ve been a spider fan before Mooney and, god willing, after Mooney. During that time I’ve made significant donations of time & money to the school (both academics and athletics). Was a long-time season ticket holder for basketball & football and traveled to several away games and made consistent & meaningful (to me) recurring donations to spider club and special projects (like practice facilities).

I’ve watched UR slash budgets to other sports (due to MBB costs and lowered than projected earnings, ie NCAA units). I’ve watched UR basketball decline in national prominence. I’ve witnessed the decline in expectations. I used to enjoy the health banter with VCU co-workers (or JMU coworkers for football). Now…they just say they feel bad and miss that UR isn’t competitive. I’m disappointed and sad. I’ve expressed my concerns and frustrations to the AD office and they didn’t seem to care. I’m still active on the academic side of campus where they value contributions. I miss UR athletics. I know several others in my same shoes.

Hopefully that helps explain it. You don’t have to agree but hopefully you’ve read this and understand. I have put a lot of my heart into UR and I’m frustrated that the AD (or the most ardent Mooney-first proponents) doesn’t appear to care that fans like me have been driven away.
Well, I was talking about why does my opinion and my being more positive than most bother so many on here? And, this post, like so many on here, amazes me. The either pretending last March didn’t happen, or not caring that it did. Or, as some even said on here, wishing it would not have. I find it highly doubtful any co workers felt sorry for you being a Richmond fan last March. Give me a freaking break.

I just cannot comprehend how anyone can be so down on our program only months after we not only won the A-10 tourney, but beat Iowa in the dance. I will never ever ever understand that. It would be like if the Bengals or Bills won the Super Bowl and their fans spent the following year upset about their seasons 10 years ago. And, some of you can down play last year all you want, but winning the A-10 tourney and beating Iowa was as awesome as any Super Bowl would be. And, just 3 games into this season, the board becomes 95% negative again, and has stayed that way since. Unreal.
 
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I am way more impressed with what VCU has done than not impressed with what we have done. I think a lot of people that are fans of neither would agree with me on that. VCU averaged an incredible 26+ wins during an 11 year run from 2007-2017. So, to be ahead of them like many on here say they expected us to be, we would have needed to average 27 wins a year. I know, I know, I am not aiming high enough. Well, whatever. No, sorry, I didn't expect us to average 27 wins during that stretch.

And, do you really think any advantage you might think we have in certain areas comes close to the advantage they have in letting guys in? Would they turn guys like Malcolm Bernard and JJ Avila down?
Ah yes, the ole academic excuse. You got a million of them VT
 
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And, some of you can down play last year all you want, but winning the A-10 tourney and beating Iowa was as awesome as any Super Bowl would be. And, just 3 games into this season, the board becomes 95% negative again, and has stayed that way since. Unreal.

VT, I agree the negativity is often "over the top", and I don't think it is fair or even realistic. But really make the NCAA and win a first round game as awesome as a Super Bowl win, I call 'over the top". Maybe if we pulled a VCU or GMU and made the Final Four, it would be as awesome as a Super Bowl win.

You constantly fall back on a season, the one's you bring up were great and show us what we can do. But a random season is more about a team, putting great seasons back to back are more about a program. I believe most of the negativity is they want more for the program.
 
And, some of you can down play last year all you want, but winning the A-10 tourney and beating Iowa was as awesome as any Super Bowl would be. And, just 3 games into this season, the board becomes 95% negative again, and has stayed that way since. Unreal.

VT, I agree the negativity is often "over the top", and I don't think it is fair or even realistic. But really make the NCAA and win a first round game as awesome as a Super Bowl win, I call 'over the top". Maybe if we pulled a VCU or GMU and made the Final Four, it would be as awesome as a Super Bowl win.

You constantly fall back on a season, the one's you bring up were great and show us what we can do. But a random season is more about a team, putting great seasons back to back are more about a program. I believe most of the negativity is they want more for the program.
Correct.

Snapshots in time are not reflective of the long term state of the program. One NCAA appearance last year with 11 year gap to previous appearance is reflective of intermediate term; not even long term. The .55 Mooney winning pct is truly reflective of long term and his total body of work.

I realize we lost a lot of good players. However we did reasonably well in the transfer portal. I will say there seems to be no momentum carryover from last year, and a “seasoned coach” should be able to achieve that. I’d like to think that our future is bright, but there is nothing in what we’re seeing this year to support that other than long term hopes and wishes. Hopes and wishes don’t win games and make NCAA appearances. Great leadership is needed.
 
I like this thread. It was even better before 1974 because we did not play them. Most VCU fans I encounter in the Robins Center have been nice people. With that said every time we play them at Robins now there are some VCU fans who exhibit improper decorum in their speech and go out of their way to aggravate the Spider fans near them. This happens to a greater extent than any other team we play. Readily admit they have dominated us on the basketball court but boorishness on the part of some of their fans is unbecoming. Realize that is the reaction they seek. Ignoring them is the reasonable course of action. However it is too bad that good manners are not the way they choose to represent their school allegiance.
 
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Wit the help of SF, this is what we put together. Feel free to correct or comment:

Slone (74-78) 43-63, 5-3
Goetz (78-81) 38-44, 1-6
Tarrant (81-93) 239-126, 9-15
Dooley (93-97) 43-69, 1-6
Beilein (97-02) 100-53, 7-3
Wainwright (02-05) 50-41, 1-2
Mooney (05-present) 323-253, 8-23
I know it isn't possible. But I would really like to see a record vs Top 100 adjusted by location) since 1974.
I know this thread is about VCU, but I'd rather analyze the series as if it was any other game.

Just not sure what type of complex analysis was available about 1970s & 1980s games.
 
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I like this thread. It was even better before 1974 because we did not play them. Most VCU fans I encounter in the Robins Center have been nice people. With that said every time we play them at Robins now there are some VCU fans who exhibit improper decorum in their speech and go out of their way to aggravate the Spider fans near them. This happens to a greater extent than any other team we play. Readily admit they have dominated us on the basketball court but boorishness on the part of some of their fans is unbecoming. Realize that is the reaction they seek. Ignoring them is the reasonable course of action. However it is too bad that good manners are not the way they choose to represent their school allegiance.
True, and I had to escort a UR friend out of a game at the Stu one year that you won. However, it goes both ways. I loved getting harassed all game the year that Mo dunked at the end of ot or sitting beside the student section while the majority of them chanted F U VCU the year of the cramp from hell.
 
I am way more impressed with what VCU has done than not impressed with what we have done. I think a lot of people that are fans of neither would agree with me on that. VCU averaged an incredible 26+ wins during an 11 year run from 2007-2017. So, to be ahead of them like many on here say they expected us to be, we would have needed to average 27 wins a year. I know, I know, I am not aiming high enough. Well, whatever. No, sorry, I didn't expect us to average 27 wins during that stretch.

And, do you really think any advantage you might think we have in certain areas comes close to the advantage they have in letting guys in? Would they turn guys like Malcolm Bernard and JJ Avila down?
Shaka was the catalyst and vcu rode it and continues to do so...coaching matters...
 
Shaka was the catalyst and vcu rode it and continues to do so...coaching matters...
Of course coaching matters, until we win 4 in a row in the A-10 tourney and beat Iowa in the dance. Then, it's 100% the players, right?
 
Was the middling regular season preceding the tournament run the coach or players>
 
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