Burn the Shirts

[spider23]

Not giving up quite yet on guys like Neskovic, Glou, even Tanner. But really getting to the point where its not fitting so far.

I am not seeing the value in sitting these guys. To be completely honest, I only see this as more Long Game in the @#%^&&& triumvirate. Mooney sitting down with PQ and Hardt and saying look, the guys we brought in this year are not really working out, that is the hit or miss nature of the portal. We have a tremendous class coming in next year, and when we work in the red shirting freshman we are going to have a super core for four years. Now we might not see much results the next two, but we are building for some big ol runs in years 3 and 4. HE HAS ALREADY said as much in interviews, saying he is going back to building through recruiting.
In reality, this is the new paradigm - at least for the near future. NO reason to believe Mooney is ahead of the curve, because history says he is behind the curve.

In reality, even with this line of faulty thinking, he would be better to work those guys in this year. So far, they can't do much worse, and I think they both could help. I think even 4700 has gone on record to play the freshman. Let's do it. Mooney is trying some IVY league strategy thinking, and I'm sure PQ and his leafy campus commentary, along with 80s and Hardt, is eating it up.

Hopefully the freshman's parents talked to them and are in Moon's office as I type. LET's GO!!!!!!!

 

[97spiderfan]

1000% agree. The freshman need to play. Saving players so they can play for your program for 4 years is an absolute fools errand in the portal world. And also strongly agree that this was a strategic move by Mooney. Mooney knew we were going to suck this year by the time this decision was made, so this is a play to his NIL buddies that he has these super freshman coming to save the day next year just sitting ready to go.

Had he played them this year and they struggle, that exposes Mooney and his wait until next year message. And if their is one thing we should know about Mooney is that he is very crafty in selling the future when the present is bad. Also anyone who would believe this schtick from Mooney at this point really just hasn't been paying attention that past 20 years.

 

[VT4700]

No question we should burn the shirts. Even if the coaches thought we might struggle at times this year, I don't think there is any way they thought we could be this bad. But, we are this bad. So, maybe a redshirt sounded good to them pre season, but after the way we have played the first 6 games, why not give McGlothin and Robinson a shot?

If they look lost out there a few games and can't help us, then fine, go back to the rotation that is struggling so bad right now if you want, but it's time to see what these guys can do.

 

[Section9.RowD]

Would be interested in knowing the dynamics point if there were to discussions underway to possible drop the redshirts. That potential 5th year of NIL earnings at age 23 for the given athlete family has to be a factor I would think.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Would be interested in knowing the dynamics point if there were to discussions underway to possible drop the redshirts. That potential 5th year of NIL earnings at age 23 for the given athlete family has to be a factor I would think.

this. plus, would we expect AP and Dusan to not get any minutes while one of the freshmen did? Roche seems like he will get all the minutes he can handle at the 3 going forward, but I'm not sure they would get enough time to make things worthwhile. I just don't see that type of mentality from the program leadership, as stated above, for various reasons. It would be a crazy panic-button push for everyone to see.

 

[fan2011]

this. plus, would we expect AP and Dusan to not get any minutes while one of the freshmen did? Roche seems like he will get all the minutes he can handle at the 3 going forward, but I'm not sure they would get enough time to make things worthwhile. I just don't see that type of mentality from the program leadership, as stated above, for various reasons. It would be a crazy panic-button push for everyone to see.

Based on play so far, the only one who should feel comfortable in their minutes is Hunt. We are on track for being the worst team in the A10 with like 5 D1 wins if we are lucky, it literally cannot get worse. Most other season it could get worse, not this season. Burn the shirts, sit current players.

 

[GKiller]

Would be interested in knowing the dynamics point if there were to discussions underway to possible drop the redshirts. That potential 5th year of NIL earnings at age 23 for the given athlete family has to be a factor I would think.

In theory. In practice if u look at history of our hs recruiting, 1 of them will be transferring down to a lower school & not even contributing much there.

 

[VT4700]

this. plus, would we expect AP and Dusan to not get any minutes while one of the freshmen did? Roche seems like he will get all the minutes he can handle at the 3 going forward, but I'm not sure they would get enough time to make things worthwhile. I just don't see that type of mentality from the program leadership, as stated above, for various reasons. It would be a crazy panic-button push for everyone to see.

Why would this mean AP and Dusan would get 0 minutes? They are combining for 40 mpg right now. Why can't they get a little less, especially AP, and see what the freshmen can do with some minutes? Dusan only played 12 minutes last night, and I think he needs more, but AP got 28 and Tanner 10. Do they really need 38 a game?

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I'm not opposed to it. But it is a move that would reflect poorly on job ability -specifically talent evaluation skills/recruiting acument - of the same people making it and I don't think they would break the glass on that particular fire alarm. They have a 5th year senior in Dusan and a guy they clearly are taken with in AP, as well as Tanner who they hyped the offseason. After 20 years, I don't see the history of that kind of decision making. Not about minutes division, just about the broad stroke of pulling a redshirt.

 

[MountainSpider]

Our main problem is we only have 1 quality guard. Burning the shirts isn't going to move the needle in the right direction since none of the freshmen are guards. How can we have a flow on offense if we are subbing in Roche, Dusan, AP, Soulis, Tanner, and the two freshmen at just the 3/4 positions on the court?

We'd be better off trying to trade some forwards to another team for guards. Perhaps that will be allowed in a couple years...

 

[MrTbone]

Our main problem is we only have 1 quality guard. Burning the shirts isn't going to move the needle in the right direction since none of the freshmen are guards. How can we have a flow on offense if we are subbing in Roche, Dusan, AP, Soulis, Tanner, and the two freshmen at just the 3/4 positions on the court?

We'd be better off trying to trade some forwards to another team for guards. Perhaps that will be allowed in a couple years...

I’d say we don’t have a main problem, we have a bunch of problems. I’d say we are getting the least out of the forward spots, which I guess I’ll include center in as well.

We have at least one capable guard in Hunt. Tyne can be a non-scorer and facilitator if we have two other reliable scorers. Beagle has shown flashes on O but I think is a defensive liability.

New lineups should be on the table as well including pushing someone like Roche down to SG/2 although he’s not a super strong ball handler.

 

[GKiller]

3/4 don’t exist in Mooney system. Positionless.

Or so I was told.

 

[MrTbone]

3/4 don’t exist in Mooney system. Positionless.

Or so I was told.

I don’t always listen to what I’m told.

I’m 100% fixated on trying to either get a strong offensive team that can actually get buckets or a defensively intense team who will limit our opponent.

We have neither right now.

 

[SFspidur]

#FreeKirby

 

[GKiller]

I don’t always listen to what I’m told.

I’m 100% fixated on trying to either get a strong offensive team that can actually get buckets or a defensively intense team who will limit our opponent.

We have neither right now.

I agree with u. My comment was actually in response to Mountain Spider.

 

[MrTbone]

So I guess the question is if these guys want to burn the redshirt at this point. Presumably they opted for this to preserve eligibility for more PT in the future. If the PT is there now (and there’s no guarantee it is), do either of them want to join what appears to be a likely crappy season?

I’d personally want to get a chance to play. Very curious how the coaches play this, if they’re even contemplating it, which I suspect is unlikely.

 

[Spiders4ever]

And the building

 

[spiderstudent17]

If the staff felt that it was in McGlothin and Robinson’s best interest to bring up the discussion on redshirting this year with this kind of team, what makes everyone think that they will produce at a meaningful level where it’s worth losing the redshirt? I’m all for trying something different, but there are guys on our roster like GW3 and B. Artis who haven’t gotten meaningful minutes (B. Artis has had injuries). I think we should give them more of a chance or try different rotation line-ups first. Also, who would they take minutes from? Glou, Nescovic, Roche, and Tanner would be their competition at those positions. Not to mention Graham who has gotten a few minutes here and there. We know Mooney is only going to tighten the rotation more as the season goes on.

 

[VT4700]

I guess we either have a couple freshmen who could maybe help us right now, but we will never know because we chose to redshirt them, or we have a couple freshmen who we know cannot help us right now, even though we are really struggling as Either way, it's frustrating as a fan.

But, I do agree and said earlier we need better guard play or nothing else will matter. I wanted to see GW3 from day 1, but once Graham beat him out, and knowing he still doesn't play while White is hurt or while Tyne gets a ton of minutes, kind of tells me it's just not happening this year.

 

[Eight Legger]

Burn Mooney's contract.

 

[SpiderTrap]

I don' think you can build through recruiting anymore - the portal has ruined that philosophy. Take for example these freshman - even if the are redshirting, they are looking at a losing team from the sidelines - and if in fact they do believe they SHOULD be playing, doesn't this drive them to transfer when the season is over? And they can play right away anywhere else. I am not saying you abandon HS recruiting, but you need a mix of it and in the new era - you may need to "find minutes" for guys you want to be part of your future if you want them to stay. Otherwise - this great class we have or think we have, will be gone before they even step on the floor.

 

[spider23]

If the staff felt that it was in McGlothin and Robinson’s best interest to bring up the discussion on redshirting this year with this kind of team, what makes everyone think that they will produce at a meaningful level where it’s worth losing the redshirt? I’m all for trying something different, but there are guys on our roster like GW3 and B. Artis who haven’t gotten meaningful minutes (B. Artis has had injuries). I think we should give them more of a chance or try different rotation line-ups first. Also, who would they take minutes from? Glou, Nescovic, Roche, and Tanner would be their competition at those positions. Not to mention Graham who has gotten a few minutes here and there. We know Mooney is only going to tighten the rotation more as the season goes on.

"If the staff felt" "If the staff felt" Come on. Our eyes don't lies. JRob would impact the game more now just through rebounding and getting extra possesions and injecting just a little bit of LIFE into this corpse. But keep thinking Mooney knows best. Mooney is gaming everyone for the long game here. Next year when we are playing 4-5 freshman and RS freshman he will just point to his new/old philosophy of building through HS recruiting is going to take one more year to show results. After tying for the regular season, with strong athletic guys at 4 of the positions (both Hunt and King very tough and athletic IMO) and Quinn was tall and smart/competitive, we replaced with one dimensional shooters - that guess what - can't shoot so far. LONG GAME from Mooney kicking in.

 

[72Spider]

Mooney's long game is solely his contract

 

[spiderstudent17]

"If the staff felt" "If the staff felt" Come on. Our eyes don't lies. JRob would impact the game more now just through rebounding and getting extra possesions and injecting just a little bit of LIFE into this corpse. But keep thinking Mooney knows best. Mooney is gaming everyone for the long game here. Next year when we are playing 4-5 freshman and RS freshman he will just point to his new/old philosophy of building through HS recruiting is going to take one more year to show results. After tying for the regular season, with strong athletic guys at 4 of the positions (both Hunt and King very tough and athletic IMO) and Quinn was tall and smart/competitive, we replaced with one dimensional shooters - that guess what - can't shoot so far. LONG GAME from Mooney kicking in.

Yes what the staff felt. They’re the ones seeing him practice every day. And come on 23, are you really suggesting that Mooney is “gaming everyone” and intentionally not wanting to play our best players - even if they’re freshmen - because he wants to claim the “one more year” argument to keep his job? Like others have said in other threads, players transfer a lot more now than in the best. Mooney is not intentionally keeping his best players from playing to try and play the “long game” and preserve his contract.

 

[spider23]

Yes what the staff felt. They’re the ones seeing him practice every day. And come on 23, are you really suggesting that Mooney is “gaming everyone” and intentionally not wanting to play our best players - even if they’re freshmen - because he wants to claim the “one more year” argument to keep his job? Like others have said in other threads, players transfer a lot more now than in the best. Mooney is not intentionally keeping his best players from playing to try and play the “long game” and preserve his contract.

I don't know. I think it is likely he did not think we are an NCAA team this year (which mid majors like VCU, St. Mary's, SDSU expect every year), or else it would be all hands on deck. Hell, Sec9 was so impressed in the NIL event he thought Jrob might challenge for a starter spot. He brings something to the team that the other guys do not, whereas guys like Tanner, Graham, Glou, Roche are all very one dimensional so far. Take SDSU for example, they have two true freshman - similar to our two - a bit raw and not expected to be polished - BUT they are able to defend and play physical - and they are getting time and also contributing in the areas of defense and rebounding. Mooney has proven time over time (THINK match up zone that started out good then got ABSOLUTELY smoke for 3-4 years before adapting) that he gets stuck on incorrect Mooney think basketball ideas. So yes, maybe not specifically trying to long game us, but he knows he's not going anywhere and he THINKS - incorrectly - that he has this new paradigm figured out - that is absolutely wrong.

 

[GKiller]

Yes what the staff felt. They’re the ones seeing him practice every day. And come on 23, are you really suggesting that Mooney is “gaming everyone” and intentionally not wanting to play our best players - even if they’re freshmen - because he wants to claim the “one more year” argument to keep his job? Like others have said in other threads, players transfer a lot more now than in the best. Mooney is not intentionally keeping his best players from playing to try and play the “long game” and preserve his contract.

Not preservation of contract he doesn’t need that here at UR not when we have our admin, and u fall into same category, that believe we had to reward Mooney performance with yet another extension when he already had 3 years left & was coming off a losing season followed by a NIT season where we crapped the bed with a 3 game losing streak.

But Moon comments preseason about guys will now be staying 4 & 5 years at 1 place - without evidence just his feeling - was a way to say we r restarting the build phase that he needs time for guys to get old & be in his system a long time. Think that is part of what 23 is getting at. New cycle for Moon that Brooklyn has mentioned too. Always new cycles that r not very prevalent in mindsets elsewhere. For a 20 year coach some of us thought we’d be past that. And not expect season 8 out of 20 being a down year. The 40% down to catch lightning in a bottle years out. And many think it’s great being a leafy campus and all.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

it's not a new cycle. It's year 3 of the current 4-5 year cycle following the cycle that ended with Grant, Sherod et al graduation (it started with them, and was extended 1 year bc of the covid extensions they got.). If we are resetting expectations just two years after resetting expectations, it means they think that maybe in year 6 we'll be competitive for NCAAs.

This cycle is:
Losing record (no postseason)
Winning record (NIT) - 1 year wonder of Jordan King.
Currently losing record (I'll be shocked if we end up in postseason in any way.)

 

[GKiller]

TY. makes sense. I screwed up the cycle. Tho in some way it feels like Moon wants to wipe this cycle & start anew with the redshirts & the local VA boys coming in next year. Because next year at year 4 doesn’t look good when it should be strong by year 4. Losing our best player & 2 best shooters off a current bad shooting team.

 

[SpiderRick]

Mooneys cycles are tied to el nino, every 4 years

 

[spiderstudent17]

Not preservation of contract he doesn’t need that here at UR not when we have our admin, and u fall into same category, that believe we had to reward Mooney performance with yet another extension when he already had 3 years left & was coming off a losing season followed by a NIT season where we crapped the bed with a 3 game losing streak.

But Moon comments preseason about guys will now be staying 4 & 5 years at 1 place - without evidence just his feeling - was a way to say we r restarting the build phase that he needs time for guys to get old & be in his system a long time. Think that is part of what 23 is getting at. New cycle for Moon that Brooklyn has mentioned too. Always new cycles that r not very prevalent in mindsets elsewhere. For a 20 year coach some of us thought we’d be past that. And not expect season 8 out of 20 being a down year. The 40% down to catch lightning in a bottle years out. And many think it’s great being a leafy campus and all.

I’m a little confused by your comments of the new cycle. What is your starting point? Is it the freshmen this year? Why not the freshmen next year? Seems like it’s rather arbitrary to pick a starting point. When we had guys like Golden, Gilly, Sherod all sticking it out and we had high expectations their last 1-2 years, then I could see how it could feel like when they graduated a new cycle started like Brooklyn said. Now, we’re getting a bunch of new players every year. Mooney can have a preference of high school guys staying 4-5 years, but how realistic is that? I posted in a thread a few months ago all the transfers we’ve had the last several years. And with transfers we’re bringing in who have 1-2 years of eligibility left, we can have an experienced team every year.

 

[spiderstudent17]

I don't know. I think it is likely he did not think we are an NCAA team this year (which mid majors like VCU, St. Mary's, SDSU expect every year), or else it would be all hands on deck. Hell, Sec9 was so impressed in the NIL event he thought Jrob might challenge for a starter spot. He brings something to the team that the other guys do not, whereas guys like Tanner, Graham, Glou, Roche are all very one dimensional so far. Take SDSU for example, they have two true freshman - similar to our two - a bit raw and not expected to be polished - BUT they are able to defend and play physical - and they are getting time and also contributing in the areas of defense and rebounding. Mooney has proven time over time (THINK match up zone that started out good then got ABSOLUTELY smoke for 3-4 years before adapting) that he gets stuck on incorrect Mooney think basketball ideas. So yes, maybe not specifically trying to long game us, but he knows he's not going anywhere and he THINKS - incorrectly - that he has this new paradigm figured out - that is absolutely wrong.

I think we all fall into the trap where we hype up transfers/high school recruits more quickly than they’re ready. He may have the skill set to bring something to the team, but my point is that I don’t think Mooney would intentionally not want to play all his best players because he’s already quit on the season or wants to preserve his contract long term. Our staff sees our players a lot more than we do. I’m sure they had the discussion with Robinson and McGlothin and believe that they will produce more in years to come. If that doesn’t end up being the case, then there could be a chance they transfer.

To your last point, I agree that I would like to see Mooney adapt our offense/defense more to the players we have. I’m sure his goal is to ideally recruit players who fit the system he wants to implement. We’ve seen the success when we find talented players who fit his system fell. It worked last year and can be done again if we find the right guys. However, given the nature of recruiting - especially nowadays - it isn’t always the case. But yes, we should try and work with who we have and come up with schemes to bring out their talents as much as possible, even if that means modifying our existing paradigm. Can’t try to put a square peg in a round hole and expect it to fit.

 

[RichmondNative]

The 4-5 year cycle was based on the pre-portal days and the “hope” was that UR would be able to shorten the cycle by being able to leverage seasoned players available in the portal.

What we have learned is that Mooney and staff are not equipped to handle building a “short cycle” team as the problem is the way Mooney coaches and develops players cannot be compressed. This is really no surprise to anyone who has followed the program. So we fans are in for a reset as Mooney tries to go back to the traditional route of building a seasoned team starting with freshmen.

Again, this is no surprise as there is plenty of history to review and expectations that have been set and maintained. Everyone should know what to expect.

As far as this year, I think the team will fall in the middle of the A10 standings because I don’t think the conference is very good. It is a 1-2 bid league. Games are competitive within the conference and that suits UR just fine. The dream of better competition in the A10 has essentially evaporated as the conference lost historically strong programs to other “better” conferences. Now with the additional burden of NIL (paid players), UR has another strike against it from being able to move up a level. The biggest schools win.

Personally I hate it, but the money has spoken and eventually the entire college landscape will change and there will be a split in the revenue making sports. UR is going to be in Tier 2. It will be interesting to see what other schools land there and it may well be that some public universities with academic leanings (ie UVA) land there too. Time will tell.

In the meantime, Spider fans will find out if Mooney can join Shaka Smart in the quest to train and retain players. It probably has a 55% chance at working and definitely will take 3-4 years to get there.

 

[VT4700]

Yes what the staff felt. They’re the ones seeing him practice every day. And come on 23, are you really suggesting that Mooney is “gaming everyone” and intentionally not wanting to play our best players - even if they’re freshmen - because he wants to claim the “one more year” argument to keep his job? Like others have said in other threads, players transfer a lot more now than in the best. Mooney is not intentionally keeping his best players from playing to try and play the “long game” and preserve his contract.

What frustrates me is we only have 2 freshmen, we have one of our worst looking teams in several years, and neither freshman is good enough to help? Same with GW3. Our guard play has not been good, yet he is not good enough to help? Why are these guys here if they can't help this year? Why are we (probably) spending NIL money on GW3 if he is not good enough to play?

 

[VT4700]

How is it a 4 or 5 year cycle when we had 24, 24, and 23 win teams in 2020, 2022, and 2024?

 

[RichmondNative]

How is it a 4 or 5 year cycle when we had 24, 24, and 23 win teams in 2020, 2022, and 2024?

Because the cycle refers to NCAA trips.

Not going to rehash the Covid impact.

 

[GKiller]

I’m a little confused by your comments of the new cycle. What is your starting point? Is it the freshmen this year? Why not the freshmen next year? Seems like it’s rather arbitrary to pick a starting point. When we had guys like Golden, Gilly, Sherod all sticking it out and we had high expectations their last 1-2 years, then I could see how it could feel like when they graduated a new cycle started like Brooklyn said. Now, we’re getting a bunch of new players every year. Mooney can have a preference of high school guys staying 4-5 years, but how realistic is that? I posted in a thread a few months ago all the transfers we’ve had the last several years. And with transfers we’re bringing in who have 1-2 years of eligibility left, we can have an experienced team every year.

Yes the cycles should be shorter. Many of us don’t think Mooney likes that tho & is fighting for the longer cycle narrative.

That’s also a lot of questions student17. Too many. A vt4700 tactic.

& I already deferred to Brownstoner on the cycle. Starting after golden Gilly graduated is fair.

If Mooney tenure is considered 1 macro cycle is having “inevitable” down years 40% of the time acceptable?

 

[Eight Legger]

If Mooney's cycles are this irregular, he should probably switch his birth control.

 

[spiderstudent17]

What frustrates me is we only have 2 freshmen, we have one of our worst looking teams in several years, and neither freshman is good enough to help? Same with GW3. Our guard play has not been good, yet he is not good enough to help? Why are these guys here if they can't help this year? Why are we (probably) spending NIL money on GW3 if he is not good enough to play?

We all share the same frustration. I think the simple and candid answer is we just didn’t do good enough with recruiting this year. Whether it’s the fact the guys we got aren’t as talented as we thought or didn’t adjust and learn our system as well as we hoped for, or some combination of the two. GW3 was highly touted out of high school, but didn’t get much playing time at Michigan so there was a bit of a mystery factor there. I think we’re all surprised that he isn’t getting at least more playing time. Mooney has shown an ability to do well with transfer portal in this NIL area, which is why I believe he can do it again. It just stinks when we miss because it makes for a very long and frustrating season.

 

[MountainSpider]

We have a 5' 10" guard shooting 20% from three and with 3 times as many turnovers as assists playing 31 minutes a game and heaving up a lot of missed shots. Four assists for the entire season. That's awful. Replace him in the starting lineup with Jordan King or Dji Bailey and we have a 6 - 1 record.

If White gets healthy and AP starts knocking down threes, we might be respectable but still not a play-off team. The A10 is a guard dominated league, and we just don't have the guards this year. Playing freshman forwards isn't going to magically change anything.

 

[spiderstudent17]

Yes the cycles should be shorter. Many of us don’t think Mooney likes that tho & is fighting for the longer cycle narrative.

That’s also a lot of questions student17. Too many. A vt4700 tactic.

& I already deferred to Brownstoner on the cycle. Starting after golden Gilly graduated is fair.

If Mooney tenure is considered 1 macro cycle is having “inevitable” down years 40% of the time acceptable?

Whatever Mooney would like the length of the cycle to be, is irrelevant in my opinion. Fact of the matter is that this is what the new era of college basketball will be. He should get used to it or retire like Bennett did. However, he has shown an ability to be able to recruit with transfers/NIL and have immediate success. I maintain this new transfer and NIL era benefits a school like us.

What are you considering down years? I’ve been over this in the past, but I don’t consider not making the NCAA a down year. Down years are like this one, where we are very bad.